The FAR OUT Crowd

 

The photograph above is too exquisite to be a photograph. It looks like an artist’s rendering, doesn’t it? Nevertheless, it is a photograph. It is an example of what the Hubble space telescope is capable of doing.

When the Editor of ARPTalk first saw this photograph, the words that came out of his mouth were: “FAR OUT!” Indeed, far out in beauty! Far out in space! Far out in technology!

Other than the photograph, there is NOTHING beautiful about this issue of ARPTalk. It is about as FAR OUT as one can get in the realms of the bizarre and surreal without going through the Looking Glass and having mercury and lead laced tea with the Mad Hatter at the cotillion of the evil and insane Queen of Hearts. Reading the comments posted is something like eating a Lay’s potato chip: “Bet you can’t eat just one! Indeed, the Editor challenges the reader to look at the third part of the issue and read just one post and stop. The content is so FAR OUT that it is like watching a train wreck in slow motion. You cannot take your eyes off the scene. Read some of these comments and see if you do not exclaim: FAR OUT!

This issue of ARPTalk is very long – in fact, the longest by far!! It is divided into three parts:

  1. The Reasonable;
  2. The Wounded; and
  3. The FAR OUT Crazies.

(Forgive the Editor’s liberties. He could not think of another word to describe what he read.) The Editor suggests that the Reader peruse parts one and two first (“The Reasonable” and “The Wounded). These are short. The comments from AFE (“Alumni for Erskine”) and AFIE (“Alumni for an Independent Erskine”) are very long. Those comments make for excellent bathroom reading, far more entertaining than Southern Living or Field and Stream.

All comments below are presented as the are found. Some formatting changes have been applied, and the highlighting is the Editor’s. As they say, they are what they are!

I. The Reasonable

Editor’s Remarks:

The posts below are reasonable and noble. Now, in the words of Paul Harvey, “Page 2: The rest of the story.” Both Mr. Nussbaum and Mr. Prohaska have been attacked by the BOIs for their “impertinence” in disagreeing with the party line. Mr. Nussbaum was so mauled by the AFE alums that he removed himself from the site.

Jason Nussbaum

Jason Nussbaum

[Editor’s Note: The “bold” type is by Mr. Nussbaum for emphasis]

I have spent the majority of the day in Due West meeting with faculty, staff, students, and even a 90 minute conversation one-on-one with Dr. Norman. A few observations which I feel need to be communicated to the alumni on this site. I count it a privilege to be both an alumnus and former faculty member, as this has given me an added insight. I do not want to betray the confidence of anyone, and thus will speak in generalities. Please know that as I make these comments, they come from conversations with individuals who I can trust have Erskine’s best interests in mind, namely faculty that I have developed very close relationships with during my time at Erskine. Time will be the true test as to whether Dr. Norman is successful in his efforts and aspirations, but I am at least reassured that things are not as bad as everyone makes them out to be.

  1. The consensus of the faculty and staff is that there are some reservations about speaking up because they do not want to lose their jobs, but most state that the “day to day” of how Erskine operates has not changed. The faculty have not been asked to change the way or the content of which they are teaching.
  2. The faculty I have spoken with, none of whom support the Commission or the concept of the Synod taking control of the college, all adamantly support the removal of Dr. Crenshaw. I never took Dr. Crenshaw’s class, and do not wish to argue one way or another in regards to his situation as I have not been made privy to all the facts. My encouragement to the alumni is to be very careful in what you believe out of the postings on this site. It is in our own human nature to assume the worst, and to construe facts in our minds to support our own position. I came into today deep down hoping to find that what has been posted on this site is true, but I cannot say that and uphold my integrity.
  3. Dr. Norman has agreed that videotaping the Columbia alumni meeting is a good idea, and has given me the permission to do so. I will be recording with my personal camera, and posting the video directly to this page in its entirety
  4. I addressed a major concern in regards to the lack of communication from the BOT and the administration to the alumni. It is my firm belief that the alumni will choose to believe ARP Talk or the postings on this page, and in many cases I feel like these two mindsets are not an accurate reflection of what is happening in Due West.
  5. Dr. Norman stated repeatedly that the alumni and our loyalty during this time of transition are vital. He was adamant in that he does not support the extreme views of either side of this rift, as neither side has Erskine’s best interest at heart. Alumni or church members who are 100% polarized in one direction or the other do not see the reality of the situation. The reality is that those of us in the middle ground who truly want what’s best for Erskine, and are not hell bent on letting “our side win” need to speak up and voice our opinions more. Those who are most polarized are also the most vocal, and truth is not always upheld to the utmost degree.
  6. The alumni who have posted on this site that “Erskine has changed and is not the same” are simply not accurate in my opinion. Sure, you may come onto campus and do not feel the warmth you did as a student, simply because the people are different, and you are not plugged into this community anymore. I have been gone 2.5 years, and felt like a celebrity walking into Moffatt today. The truth is that for alumni who graduated 10-20 years ago, you aren’t going to have the same connections here as you did when you were a student. Erskine will not be the same place as when you were a student, because the students do not know who you are anymore!
  7. I was very impressed with Dr. Norman’s vision for what is happening with the admissions process. Only time will tell, but I feel his current strategies are hitting the nail on the head. His desire is to increase enrollment so that tuition will cover the operating expenses of the college, and the annual fund will become the added bonus that will help Erskine improve its facilities, technology, scholarships, and endowments. The statement that Dr. Norman does not consider the alumni essential is simply false. If the college can sustain its operational costs and not dip into the annual fund for basic functions, alumni money becomes the added bonus that will push Erskine higher and higher.
  8. It is absolutely essential that all alumni verify the facts of what they are hearing before reacting and getting upset. Admittedly, I was very upset and anti-administration because of the influence of this website, but my impression has been completely changed today. When long time, trusted faculty voice their overwhelming support for Dr. Norman to me in a one on one conversation, I feel comfortable trusting that his vision is in line with what is best for Erskine. These are faculty who have shot straight from the very beginning, and who admittedly did not think Dr. Norman was the right choice for this position. To hear them offer their overwhelming support for him was very encouraging, especially when not prompted to do so.

In closing, please hear me when I say that I am not converted to “the other side”, but have more confidence today that Dr. Norman is not in support of them either. I don’t feel that the true views of the majority of people in the ARP church are being represented by the loud voices we are hearing, and that he is willing to stand up against the extremists of both sides. I am not fully endorsing Dr. Norman, because now his actions have to line up with his words, and only time can tell whether that will happen or not. My faith in the goodness of Erskine has been restored, and I will continue to support and pray for the faculty, staff, administration, and students who are suffering the consequences of two bickering extremist parties who do not truly have Erskine’s best interests at heart.

[Editor’s note: The Editor is not privy to whom Mr. Nussbaun is responding; however, from the context of the discussion, it seems that the questioner is Ms. Mary Elizabeth Todd. Mr. Nussbaum is respond to a question regarding the recruitment of students.]

Jason Nussbaum

‎1) Absolutely not. They are focusing on targeting students with information directly received from SAT/ACT, which now includes the student’s GPA. Instead of spending $100K a year in mailings to students who may not have any interest in Erskine, they will send an e-mail to the students who meet the Erskine standard for admission. This will include a link to apply online, and a detailed system of getting the student the information that is most pertinent to their area of interest, including letters from alumni who discuss how Erskine has helped them achieve success in their field. Instead of standing at a high school fair and waiting for students to come to us, he is taking a very proactive approach in going after the students who can be academically successful at Erskine. Also having a better management of admissions in the fall to work more closely with students who are on the borderline to increase numbers, while also preventing the end of spring panic which has often resulted in letting anyone with a pulse in the door just to put a butt in a bed

Mary Elizabeth Todd

Another question are the people you talked to concerning Dr. Crenshaw aware of how it has been reported as being handled? and another one- what was said about the concern about the Synod’s actions- And I think most of us here would just let them let it go back to the way it was way back where there were no statements of inerrancy- which may or may not being asked of the college- how do they feel about what has occurred recently with Dr. Gettys. I mean many of us are vocal but I think what concerns us most is not necessarily Dr. NOrman but more what the Synod is going to do- is this constant threat of change of the BOT so that they can have more control. If this was the ARP church that I remembered I would not be worried- but there are some that pull sneaky tactics- like the snow synod. Dr. NOrman indicated to me that both these sites and the site that must not be mentioned are frustrating to him. So what you say there is in line with what he said to me.

Jason Nussbaum

The faculty I have spoken with are aware of what Dr. Norman and Dr. Crenshaw have said, and all have supported that what Dr. Norman have said are true. I have been told (by faculty, not Dr. Norman) that his firing was the result of not only the culmination of his actions for the past years, but are most specifically related to a conflict and unprofessional actions towards another faculty member. I have been told that this action was faculty requested, and that the case against him was being built long before Dr. Norman took charge. From my understaing, Dr. Norman and others have called for the charges against the EC Foundation board members to be dropped. The ARP church is going to continue to nominate members to the BOT who represent the best interests of the church, however, I think many ARP ministers are realizing that the Synod which bought into the DeWitt/Wilson/Wingate scandal were not in the best interests of the college. The ones who have been coerced into Chuck’s mindset are in the minority, and speak out of turn, mis-representing the views of the majority of the ARP’s.

Daniel Prohaska

Daniel Prohaska

Here’s a vision for Erskine; tell me what you all think! (For the record, this was someone else’s idea, but I think it’s worth examining):

  • An academic institution second to none.
  • Incorporating Biblical truth into every classroom and every aspect of student life.
  • Building a strong academic foundation during a student’s first two years, then applying that background to a rigorous set of critical thinking courses.
  • Building students up in the Christian faith.
  • Have members of the Board of Trustees, Synod, and Alumni occasionally spend time in residence halls with students.
  • Have every member of the Erskine community embody what it means to be a follower of Jesus Christ.
  • Expand Erskine’s student base to include the entire southeast.
  • Bring the student body up to 800 or even 1000.

Is everyone seeing what this person is trying to say? What is the vision of Erskine that Alumni are trying to protect? What values are being threatened and by whom specifically? What has changed on campus that threatens the legacy of Erskine?

One thing I have found that EVERYONE agrees on is this: Erskine will be dead in ten years tops, probably sooner. If we all agree on this, why can’t we start working to settle the differences we have peacefully? Why must both sides of this debate get bogged down in online spit ball contests on Facebook and blog sites? Real talk will yield real results. If we are all the Christians we claim to be, it is high time we start acting like it. Nothing will ever get done through yelling words of hate and fear. Real progress is made when leaders from all sides of a conflict come together with mutual respect to reconcile their differences. If this has been done before, I’d love to see proof of it.

II. The Wounded

Editor’s Remarks:

Note this blog post on The Aquilla Report. The following story is “used with permission.” The story demonstrates the effects of the “critical thinking,” tolerance, and understand of “freedom of speech” for which the BOIs are noted.


The Unsuspecting ASSAULT: An Alum Looks at the Erskine Story

By Cathy Craig Neil

When did God leave our educational system? Why did he leave? Is he coming back? These are questions that many Americans are finally asking. This is based on information I have been reading on forums and social networks like Facebook concerning the major assault of adverse theology in our Christian colleges. Living in an area for 17 years and connected deeply with a very small Christian college I was unaware that quietly and slowly it was being stripped of its heritage, values, morals and most of all the Christian foundation it was created upon so many decades ago.

The atmosphere changed over the time period I lived there. The college was in the middle of a battle it was not prepared to fight. This endeavor emerged from those who had the desire to change the foundation of God’s church to meet the current ambitions of an American society that is caught up in a travesty of selfishness, greed and political correctness.

The fallout of the mess hit my family directly. My husband along with many who worked there were in various ways shown the door. Basically, many good Christian families’ lives were torn apart by an invisible enemy that slyly crept through each facet of the campus like a snake. We and those others in the same boat had to pick up the pieces, and start over somewhere else leaving family, friends and many years of hard work behind. It was devastating.

At the time, I was not aware of the devious plan of the enemy. He would take one school and pick it apart and then move onto another.

Now, the fight has catapulted to a war in the backyard of my own alma mater. It was heartbreaking enough to be among one of the many who watched the decline of one of God’s great institutions. I cannot wrap my brain around the surge of in-fighting, bickering and name calling that has become the speech on Facebook and other websites about the college I graduated from along with many of my family members dating back to my grandfather.

It makes me sad. We have allowed our greed, personal causes and selfish desires to run God out of our public schools, neighborhoods, government and now our Christian colleges. It is one thing to be called a liar, yelled at through cyber space or questioned by many who decided they knew more than I did and I lived in it! I witnessed this demolition in one college; I don’t want it happening again especially where I received my degree.

In my effort to reach those that I hold dear through forums it became technological warfare. I was trying to warn them. This occurred in about a 24 -36 hour turn around that I was extended hate, verbal abuse and even informed by a certain past alumnus who claimed to be “gay” he would not give another dime of his money to that institution until their liberal agenda was accepted. His sly attack on me started with a message that questioned the validity of what I had written. I have never met this man or heard of him, but he let me know in no uncertain terms that he disagreed with me almost as a threat.

As far as his withholding his contributions I am sure that God can get money anytime from anywhere and that his would not be missed.

Writing my entries on the forum I told them “the names may have changed, but the game is still the same.” It has just found a new home to do business. Apparently, very few agreed with me and the ones who did not as I wrote lashed out at me with a vengeance. I had to make sure I was not on a secular website that hated Christians. No! I was on a forum of my own alumnus from a Christian college! I became acutely aware that they didn’t believe me or that I had already been a pawn in this clever scheme of the devil. We had “already been there and done that.”

This so bothered me that I lost sleep over it. I never dreamed that anything like this would happen to the cherished college of my family and so many friends that I thought were friends. The divisions are so thick you “can cut them with a knife.”

Within a 48 hour period of making the effort to warn this family of friends, the Lord showed me these words of his, Titus 3: 9-11: “But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. Warn a divisive person once and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.”

The storm that is now on the other side of the horizon had worn me out physically and mentally but I knew what God wanted me to do. It is like watching your adult child make mistakes that you know will eventually catch up to them. They refuse to listen because they believe they know everything and don’t need advice. God was telling me to leave this group to their fate. I had warned them.

Leaving the love I have for this great institution to follow Jesus I wrote my last entry. I warned them once more of the fate of our alma mater if they didn’t stop the fighting. If a non-Christian had stumbled onto this particular forum he would have decided he never wanted to be a Christian if this is the way we act. No wonder our country is in the mess it is in. The Christians are setting an example that we are no different than anyone else. You cannot give what you don’t have, and if Christians do not exhibit the love of Jesus in their hearts even with each other, we have all lost. There was no love in the comments written that I could see; it felt like an all out attack on the cross of Jesus.

In the end of my entry I wrote that the words spewing out on the pages of this forum were not making God happy. That was when God revealed to me the Scripture from 1Corinthians 14:33, “For God is not a God of disorder, but of peace.” There was nothing peaceful about what I was reading or the actions being taken among those involved with the actual decisions of the future of this Christian college.

This unsuspecting assault would never have happened if Christians would follow the truth of God’s Word; not twisting his Word to meet our own agendas. Following God’s Word as he wants us to understand it would show us how to live our lives so that we will know how to keep his institutions in line with what he desires.

So let me ask you again: When did God leave our educational system? He left when God’s church stopped standing up for the truth. Why did he leave? He moved out of the way because he is a gentleman and will not force us to love him or to do his will.

Is he coming back? I hope so. But we need to ask him and really intend on doing things his way.

Cathy Craig Neil and her husband Mark own their own property management business. Cathy is a licensed PMIC and a graduate of Erskine College. She is also a columnist/author for www.believersbay.com.

III. The FAR OUT Crazies

Editor’s Remarks:

There is not much to be said here by the Editor. The venom and vituperation evident speak volumes.

Selected posts from AFE, 9/5

David Dangerfield I think this group needs to get back on topic. I appreciate individuals who’ve chosen to remind everyone they hate the fighting on both sides. I hate it too.
Perhaps even more, I’m disgusted by the notion that this group was founded for fighting. No. This group was founded for defense. I’m not sorry for reacting when Erskine, my friends, and truth itself is attacked. Period.
That being said, I will continually protest proposed changes to the Charter that give the Synod official/legal power to do what it did at the Snow Synod. And, unless any new information comes out, I will continue to ask why Dr. Bill Crenshaw isn’t in the classroom – where he has been for 35 years. I will continue to promote academic freedom against any and all challenges. I will continue to mourn the loss of so many employees who for various reasons are not at Erskine anymore, even as I strive to promote an Erskine where any and all would desire to be employed. These are the things we need to focus on!
I want peace too, but NOT if it means turning my back on what is right and what is true.
And, I’ll do this all while being, far from secular, but firmly convicted that our cause is indeed a cause of Christ. Constructed in fellowship, affection, and care for our fellows who still call Erskine home. In righteous outrage at the lies and attacks that some have maliciously carried out in the name of some perverted version of Christianity. I’m outraged. More than outraged at being called secular. I was taught that God is honored by truth and virtue, loving thy neighbor as they self. Didn’t Christ command that? Wasn’t that the greatest commandment? What love is there in attacking innocent employees and a fine Christian Liberal Arts College?
The bitter fruit we’ve seen with Erskine, it is simply part of a larger harvest in the ARP Church. A symptom of some deep division that they must work out. We know one another by our fruit. And, instead of celebrating when someone falls – we need to be true Christians. We must pray for those people, even those with whom we so ardently disagree. None of us can relish in any institution or person’s tragedys and still be keeping Christ commands. Amid it all, we are commanded to love and pray for one another.
I pray for the ARP Church and, I will not, I will never, turn my back on Erskine

Ann Clarke Judd Thank you, David. I and many, many, others will not turn our backs either!

Gerry Lord David, I stand with you. Well said. I believe Jesus was against a rigid orthodoxy, such as appears to be promoted currently by factions in the ARP church. For Erskine to not only remain who she has been, and move far ahead, she must not bow to one perspective of viewing the world and faith.

Scott Fleming The latest and greatest I’m hearing out of Due West today is that Dr. Norman has forbidden Dr. Crenshaw from going on campus. Has anyone else out there heard it or can confirm or dispute it?

Becky Lauderdale Can’t confirm or dispute, but if it’s true: All these years Bill has been teaching, and now he’s considered “dangerous”? Wouldn’t want critical thinking to break out on campus, would we?

Marie Richardson Holy Flying Spaghetti Monster. Sheesh. I feel honored to have been taught by someone ‘dangerous’ then.

Jonathan Breazeale Wouldn’t surprise me at all. What a childish thing to do.

Jim Ogilvie How old was Norman when Dr. Crenshaw began teaching at EC?

Nancy Hall Gautier Confirmed by Dr. Crenshaw on the other site.

Jim Ogilvie Sounds like more grounds for a protest march ! The streets and sidewalks of DW ARE open to the public, right ?

Jonathan Breazeale Hate to suggest this but this is something the ACLU would love to jump into.

Selected posts from AFE, 9/6

Vicki Lown Maybe it is time for alumni to make an appearance together to support the cause. Only then will students become involved. You know how it is when you are a student. You really do not think how these issues are so important no matter what side you are on until you get a little older. And I know that does not apply to all students, but the majority. So finding ways they can get involved whether there is media or not could be the place to start. If it gets large enough, media will come.

David Dangerfield Some alumni board members are talking about having the SGA President at the next Alumni Directors meeting. That might be a step in that direction. A few students have also expressed interest in having lunch next time a few of us are on campus

Selected posts from AFIE, 9/6

Beth Caldwell Buzogany Regarding news coverage for a protest march, I think it is a good visual that television stations and newspapers would carry. Getting the cameras and reporters there will need to be coordinated well in advance of the march. Do we have a PR person in our midst who could take on that task and either be or assist a spokesperson, once we decide on a date and time? If we get a commitment from a station, we will need a sizable turnout to insure that they run the piece.

Gerry Lord I will volunteer to be an assistant PR person. As a pastor, I’m used to public speaking, and have dealt with media–however, I am in the lowcountry, and know there are probably experienced PR folks on here. I have the time to make calls, send letters and emails. So whoever wants the big job, I’ll help. (Could we get a float at Homecoming and let Bill Crenshaw ride???)

Beth Caldwell Buzogany Perhaps the float could honor Dr. Crenshaw’s being named Professor of the Year for 2010. They haven’t named one for 2011 yet, have they?

Rick Beard I’ll try to find out if we can get in the parade.

William Crenshaw

American Association of University ProfessorsAcademic Freedom for a Free Society

September 6, 2011

VIA ELECTRONIC AND U.S. MAIL

Dr. David A. Norman President
Erskine College
P.O. Box 308
Due West, South Carolina 29639

Dear President Norman:

Dr. William B. Crenshaw, a tenured full professor and holder of an endowed chair in the Department of English with thirty-five years of service at Erskine College, has advised this Association of your August 12 letter notifying him of his immediate suspension with pay from his academic responsibilities pending the outcome of dismissal proceedings. Professor Crenshaw has informed us that he has been denied access to his office and to his college e-mail account. We understand that the letter was sent after Professor Crenshaw declined to accept an early-retirement agreement which would have paid him his salary through August 2013.

Assuming the accuracy of the information in our possession, we are writing to advise you that this action is unacceptable under the enclosed 1940 Statement of Principles on Academic Freedom and Tenure and the complementary 1958 Statement on Procedural Standards in Faculty Dismissal Proceedings (also enclosed). We note that the procedures for dismissal set forth in pages 35-36 of the Erskine College faculty manual are essentially consistent with the key provisions of the 1958 Statement.

One of those provisions, which the faculty manual incorporates almost verbatim, is the following: “Suspension of a faculty member during the [dismissal] proceedings is justified only if immediate harm to the faculty member or others is threatened by the faculty member’s continuance.”
In an August 21 e-mail message to you, Professor Crenshaw questioned the basis of the suspension “because,” he wrote, “your documents have never indicated that you considered me a harm to myself or others. . . . ” You responded on August 23:

“Immediate harm to yourself or others would be threatened by your continuance. The reasons for this were set out in my letter to you dated August 12, 2011. There is one reason in particular that I would like to call to your attention. The College cannot permit you to hold your position on an active basis and while doing so [permit you to] encourage people to quit donating to Erskine and to quit sending their kids to Erskine.”

As far as we can ascertain, the August 12 letter did not ascribe any bases for Professor Crenshaw’s suspension, much less a perceived threat of immediate harm, and the reason given on August 23, even if true (Professor Crenshaw sharply contests its accuracy), hardly seems to involve an imminent threat to anyone’s safety or well-being, though its being employed as a basis for the suspension does lend additional credence to Professor Crenshaw’s claim that the actions taken against him were based on considerations that violate his academic freedom. In addition, since by your own account Professor Crenshaw’s allegedly “disloyal” speech occurred in an online forum, suspending him from his faculty responsibilities will clearly do nothing to prevent further such expressions.

We find it puzzling, moreover, that the same faculty member who, according to your August 9 proffer of early retirement, is “leaving Erskine in good standing” and whose “many contributions over the years are greatly appreciated” should by August 12 become such a danger that you would be compelled to suspend him immediately.

An administration’s action to suspend a professor from service, absent threat of immediate harm, is a matter of basic concern to our Association. We urge that the suspension be lifted, that Professor Crenshaw’s access to his office and to the campus e-mail system be restored, and that any subsequent action be consistent with the above-cited procedural standards. We look forward to your response.

Sincerely,

Gregory F. ScholtzAssociate Secretary and Director
Department of Academic Freedom, Tenure, and Governance

Enclosures

cc:
Mr. Joe Patrick, Chair, Board of Trustees
The Rev. Andrew K. Putnam, Moderator of the General Synod of the ARPC
Dr. Norton Bradley Christie, Interim Vice President and Dean of the College
Professor Brooks Kuykendall, Faculty Chair
Professor Larry Watson, President, South Carolina Conference AAUP
Professor William B. Crenshaw

Marie Richardson The insanity of this entire situation is astounding.

Helen Elizabeth Malone Ditto Marie. It is like we are watching a strange sitcom/reality tv show unfold and no matter how much or how loud we yell at the characters on the screen, nothing will change the story lines.

Gary Bordogna Right now, I bet Dr. Norman is saying !@#$%^&*.

Nancy Hall Gautier Gary, I bet Chuck is too.

Timothy P. Bradshaw Give ‘em hell Bill! I think all they understand is fire and brimstone…

Stacy Hall ‎”Mama always said, ‘stupid is as stupid does’.” (Forgive me if I missed the punctuation, it’s been a long time since high school :)

Jim Ogilvie Sounds like a “warlock-hunt” at Erskine !

Jonathan Breazeale Dr. Norman cannot curse! It would violate his Statement of Faith!

Stacy Hall Do we still have spies here? If so, ARPTalk will be interesting tomorrow.

Jamie Cheshire-Opp Dr. Crenshaw – YES!!! Amen!

Hayden Mills Pollack Too cool, this makes my day!

Marci Tuten Greci Wonderful.

Joe Sullivan Yeah- Go Bill!

John Brawley Wow! I’m glad that you’re are defending yourself and getting some very strong backing. My initial response was “Give ’em hell, Bill.” But that is tempered with the realization of the damage this could mean for Erskine. My experience with regulating bodies is that when an institution violates its own published regulations they really start smelling blood. I can’t see this ending well for Erskine without more administrative change. A move like this, in violation of Erskine’s own policies, shows inexperience and ineffective leadership. I am sure that we haven’t see all the cards that each side has to play but I imagine that there is potential for blood to be spilt. Still, give ’em hell!

Jonathan Breazeale In the immortal word of Ferris Bueller, “sometimes, you just have to say ‘what the f…'” My point being, in this current world, playing nice is like urinating your pants. You’ll get a warm feeling but down the road, you’ll realize you “hurt” yourself in the interest of others.

Jay Daniel Maurer Jr. I know it’s easy for me to say “go Dr Crenshaw”, but GO DR. CRENSHAW

Lewis McKelvey Common sense would lend one to believe that with the AFT&G folks weighing in here, some sense of sanity might return to Dr. Norman and the Synod decision-makers. Unfortunately, I too often tend to be pessimistic in these situations, thinking that Dr. Norman and his ilk will find cause to yet again trivialize the situation – continuing along their blind, merry way. I hope I’m wrong.

Anyway, glad to see Dr. Crenshaw’s fighting back!

Beth Caldwell Buzogany Dr. Norman has got to be thinking, “Why did I ever come to Erskine?” But then, as he reassured Stacy Hall in his response to her letter, he and his family will be fine no matter what happens. Take no prisoners, Bill!

Jay West Just one more flaming example of Norman’s inexperience and inability to lead. How long will Joe Patrick and the board allow this incompetent brief era to continue. They are allowing an outside influence (ARP) to exercise a hit list through the faculty and administration. In the end, they will use Norman’s own incompetence as the excuse and deflect the blame. To the BOT, enough is enough, it is time to do your job. Do not play with the legacy of an institution or the legacies of our professors. Joe Patrick, i have known a long time, his father Jody is a man I love dearly, and I hope that Joe’s former resolve and foresight will urge him to do the right thing. Enough!

Mary Elizabeth Todd WOW- is my first response- second response what is next-well I am sure the phones are burning up the lines today- on what to do next byt the TOS. I am also sure that there are some of those calls that Dr. Norman will have no idea that are being made. It also appears that in this letter he is caught is telling a lie in the battle of his own letters or emails August 12 and Aug 23 letters- also from my understanding they are taking as the rule -that is true with any mental health professional- meaning that a professor is in immediate risk of killing himself/herself which should have him removed for a mental evaluation to protect them or he is a threat to bodily harm someone else- which would have the police arrest him- even a restraining order has to have at least that part so I doubt legally Dr. Crenshaw can be kept off campus but at this point I would stay off simply because I am sure his attorney has told him to do so. Besides I do not remember that Dr. Crenshaw has ever told us not to give money to Erskine- We have done so but that is our right as alumni-

Ray King Does any of this mess resemble the noble tradition that our fathers knew? How is this praiseworthy?

Mary Elizabeth Todd I would like the men involved to ask if themselves if the results are all that matter- what kind of lessons are they teaching the students -you can do whatever you want just say that “God said…” reminds me of the song the street preacher sings in the Mass by Leonard Berstein.

Jay West This is by far not the first lie Norman has told to the alumni. I have an entire list.

Selected posts from AFIE, 9/8

Jay West Homecoming Media Coverage. I am working to bring the news media to the Erskine campus for Homecoming. Some of you may remember a spot I did with a local news station after the Snow Synod. Just wait for homecoming. I encourage everyone to attend and voice your concerns for Erskine. We need someone to design a T-Shirt for the occassion. Maybe Helen can pull off another good one that we can purchase online. Nonetheless, I am assured the media will be there, and it is time for all of us to be heard. If Norman won’t listen to the alumni, I promise the viewing area will listen. I want to encourage Crenshaw, Gaston, O’Cain, McAllister, Gambrell, Hendricks, and eveyone else to come and speak your mind. The mic is yours.

Selected posts from AFE, 9/9

Eric Goodwin Dr. Norman closes his email to the faculty regarding Dr. Crenshaw with the following valediction – “All for Christ!”

Eerily reminiscent of the rallying call of the Crusaders slaughtering infidels? God wills it!

Harry Meyer III When I was a boy, I accepted God because of my parents. As a young adult, including the years I was at Erskine, I was a “believer” out of habit…but I did not give it much thought. In graduate school, as I grew in my understanding of science, I became convinced that “faith” was no longer necessary…a crutch I no longer needed. In the years following graduate school, I matured (at least a little) and found that the faith of my youth had a place in my life and it grew into a maturing faith. Then I wasted an enormous amount of time trying to reconcile biblical teaching and scientific fact. Now, I have come to understand that my profession and my faith can coexist without tainting the other. One of the things that has allowed that personal reconciliation is remembering the men who first introduced me to “real” science…Bright Lowery, Howard Thomas, and Bill Junkin. Men who taught science well and lived faithful lives. The investment they made in me and the example of their lives has served me well for 30 years.

Selected posts from AFIE, 9/9

William Crenshaw Headed back to Due West to clean out my office, and because my internet is down, I may be going dark for a few days — so this seemed to be a good time to share some thoughts with the alumni boards.

FIRST, Diane and I can’t thank you enough for the support you all have shown over the last months and especially the last days. The alumni sites were lifelines that countered the inevitable depressed feelings that come from being fired. The comments from ex-students are extra special: students, constantly passing through Erskine and Due West, are the raison d’être for Erskine and its teachers.

And that brings up the SECOND point: the focus has been temporarily on my being fired but the focus should and will return to Erskine. Actually, my firing is not so much about me as it is about Erskine — the new Erskine of Dr. Norman and the men behind him. My firing isn’t even personal — it’s just a symptom of the New Erskine disease. I told my colleagues on the Grievance Committee last spring, when we heard Dr. Hering’s case, that I was next. The administration is going down a list provided to them from the famous undue outside influence; I knew where I was on the list; I know, within a couple of candidates, who is next. So my firing was both predictable and inevitable. The problem is that Erskine is being hijacked; the good news is that the hijackers can be stopped.

Which means that THIRD, we must all be steadfast and patient. Right now the administration is facing a hurricane of criticism. They have the sails reefed and the hatches battened down; they’re determined to wait until this squall blows over and then the sails will be unfurled, the hatches opened, and the ship will sail ever on, always bearing starboard. Well, we have to show them that the squall won’t blow over, that Erskine will not drop off our radar screens, that they cannot just wait us out. They need to know that we’re always here, watching, judging, moving to block their plans to hijack the college. We can’t let them feel secure or comfortable, not for a second. It won’t take much to do this — just as reminder now and again that we’re still here, that we’re not going to let them get away with just anything.
As I said at the beginning of this struggle, back in March of 2010, we can lose but they can’t win. So in that sense, they have already lost. Our job now is to make sure that we don’t lose too.

Thanks again for your support of the Erskine we all knew. That is the focus and the prize of this struggle.

Hope Gold this brings me to tears. I admit that I am one of the liberal offshoots of EC, one that they probably didn’t want to form. But I am proud of who I am, and how EC factored into my “becoming” and you were a part of that environment. As you remove the parts of your office in “cleaning out” know that hundreds of us have you in prayer as a person, and as a symbol for all people who will benefit from the light of reason and knowledge either at EC or elsewhere. I know my children will not go there. :( But I have good wishes for the kids who are there now, and I always have hope for the future.

Becky Lauderdale Much of the drama has been made to seem that it was all about you, but in the meantime, the theft a great institution of higher learning has been taking place. Challenging young minds is not easy to do, but it’s been worthwhile for so many of them. Thanks for letting us know what’s really been going on in Due West as many good people have been leaving and lives have been disrupted – as an intermittent resident of DW myself, it’s been really sad to hear about. Come back to this site soon, and God be with you and Diane.

Cecelia Hall Dunleavy Thank you, Dr. Crenshaw, for everything you have done and continue to do for Erskine. My prayers are with you and all the others who are being punished for standing up for what is right for Erskine.

Amanda Roach I can’t begin to explain how much this breaks my heart. I never imagined that the Erskine I grew to love could do this to one of their own. I chose Erskine as my college because it was a family. It didn’t matter what issues you may have had with other students or professors, if someone was in need, the Erskine family was there to help. I was so touched by the students and faculty when I came to visit, that I turned down a full scholarship to another school. This is NOT Erskine. This is the work of manipulators and liars. They think that we will be silenced now, but I am more motivated than ever. It is time for our school, our family, to stop losing its faculty and integrity.

Mary Elizabeth Todd Take care- and we know what this fight is all about- There are those that will disagree but for me I want to let you know that you have been a gentleman in this matter. I am sorry for your stuggle. My prayers go with you and yours.

Ray King Bill, you and Diane take care. This has to be hard, but you have resources that will not let this defeat you. Jimmy has beer making stuff that Monty gave him maybe over a year ago. When you see him (if you stay in Due West) tell him to bring it up, or get yours out, and make a special DN brew. Then invite me to the tasting.

Harry Meyer III I am trying to get an invite to Erskine to speak to the science students. I want toshare both my current science work (advanced carbon materials) and my faith journey. I only hope that Dr. Norman drops by!

Mary Elizabeth Todd ‎@Harry I offered to speak to those going into the social work field- heard nothing from Norman- I mean I did get Social Worker of the Year 2004 for South carolina.

Harry Meyer III I am not asking Norman…don’t know him, don’t want to.

Amanda Roach ‎@Harry, have you tried contacting the bio department directly? We had many good speakers while I was there.

Harry Meyer III I wrote directly to Dr. Thomas.

Selected posts from AFIE, 9/10

Jay West Good News from Erskine. The students are organizing! This seems to have been the last straw because they all love Bill Crenshaw. Hoecoming should be a lot of fun!

Harry Meyer III It has been confirmed..I will be addressing science students (an faculty) at EC this fall as soon as we agree on a date. Looking forward to being on campus and interacting with current students. I hope that it makes me feel somewaht better than I have over the past weeks reading about waht is going on.!

Selected posts from AFE, 9/10

Beth Alexander Rickenbaugh For those alumni that remain in the ARP Church, please send your concerns to Rev. Andrew Putnam, moderator of Synod. His email address is andrewputnam@mac.com. I just did. Not only should the BoT know how we feel about what is happening, but the Church should also know. I don’t know, it may just be “spitting in the wind” but I felt like I needed to make my views known to him.

David A. Danehower Beth – An excellent idea. Reverend Putnam is on the Charter Committee. TOS has been extremely vocal in what they think needs to happen to Erskine, it is time for those within the ARP who feel differently to push back.

Dr. William Evans, a leader in the efforts to “reform” Erskine estimated in an article he wrote for Reformation21 that the ARP Church is approximately 40 percent self-consciously confessionally Reformed and Evangelical (i.e. the core of TOS). Another 30 percent or so are more broadly Evangelical and the remaining 30 percent are what he refers to as “culture Christians” which I take to mean “liberal” Christians. Bear in mind that Dr. Evans would likely slant his estimate to favor his own position.

It is time for those within the ARPC who deplore what is taking place at Erskine to speak up to the Church leadership and let their opinion be known!

Mary Lou Holmes The estimates Dr. Evans made are about as accurate as the Moderator’s Commission. That means NOT Accurate at all. That isn’t a bias. It isn’t remotely scientific because it came from nowhere.

Mary Lou Holmes If you want to take a survey after the 9/11 attacks to see if Amercans are against terrorism, be my guest, Dr. Danehower. I don’t think it is necessary. No one needs a survey to find out the alumni don’t like the takeover. No one needs to see fake polls numbers to find out liars cheats and thieves are not true Christians.

Mary Lou Holmes By all means let’s take a survey so the leaders will know what to do. They won’t know what is right until they hear from the public.

Mary Lou Holmes No one needs to wait for a survey to find out the alumni support Dr. Crenshaw and we are against The Other Side. If someone from the Alumni Association won’t speak up for us, we will speak for ourselves and we will vote you out of office Dr. Danehower.

Mary Lou Holmes We have already contacted the press and the students.

Selected post from AFE, 9/15

David Dangerfield It has been reported that the Erskine Faculty Executive Committee met and voted to affirm that Dr Crenshaw’s procedural rights had not been violated. I am working to confirm and to fi out if Dr Crenshaw addressed the committee.

Stacy Hall Would you sit across the table from the administration and protest an action, if you were a faculty member there right now? Most people would not.

William Epps Interpret what you wrote. Did Dr. Norman not violate them? Did Dr. Crenshaw not violate them? Did the faculty not violate them. If they were not violated where does position does that put Dr. Crenshaw?

P. Mark Wilson A complete culture of intimidation. Protest and you lose your job and your means of supporting your family. There is a dark, dark cloud over Erskine.

David Dangerfield Bill, in other words, the FEC apparently concluded that Norman followed procedure when he removed Crenshaw.

David Dangerfield I’ve confirmed that the report is accurate.

Ray King My questions: Did the FEC only look at procedure to see if anything was amiss without being given any grounds for Bill’s termination? Evaluation of procedural matters is not necessarily an evaluation of grounds for dismissal. If the FEC asked for grounds, were they given? As far as I remember the only thing we have sort of heard is that Bill publicly encouraged folks not to send their children and alumni not to send money. Were those grounds supported by the FEC?

David Dangerfield You’ve hit on something Dr. King. As I understand it, the FEC only weighed in on procedure, not merit. I’m also pretty confused . . . the AAUP apparently wrote part of the procedural guidelines . . . they clearly had questions.

Meanwhile, I think we can all agree that losing Dr. Crenshaw is sad for the college. He was one of the best teachers I ever had.

David Dangerfield For some reasons that I can’t disclose, this will likely by my last comment on the situation with Dr. Crenshaw. Suffice to say, I find it all unfortunate. I’m praying for him and for Erskine.

Selected posts from AFIE, 9/14

Jay West DISTURBING: Most of us remember when Bill Lesesne, Jeanne McDill, Monty Wolley, Peggy Junkin and Robin Agnew had the authority to go out of their way to accommodate students with needs, and THEY DID. A young 21 year old student, due lost hours as a transfer student, lost about $2500 in SC Student Aid. In order to stay at Erskine, the only way he could remain in school was to move off of campus and eat beans and rice. At present, that decision resides, not with Student Services, but with the President, David Norman, who declined to allow the student to move off of campus. This young man is a leader with FCA, has good grades, and is on the tennis team. He can vote, drink legally, go to war and pay taxes, but he cannot live off of campus to remain in school. What in the HELL is Erskine becoming? Is the Board of Trustees really willing to sacrifice the institution over a president that has demonstrated poor decision making X 10? Do they realize that if the alumni walk away, there is no one is left to pay the bills? Is General Synod willing to step in and fill the gap! If General Synod will step in and pay the total amount supplied by the alumni on an annual basis. I will shut up. Maybe that will work. It is time for the Board of Trustess to lead the institution and stop protecting the inability and inexperience of the president. I would hope that 533 students are more important than one person!

Mary Elizabeth Todd Jay-so what was the reason that this young man was given that he could not live off campus-was it money for doing so- does Erskine no longer have day students?

Kevin Metz I heard of a similar situation at Furman, where students are required to stay on campus at least some of their years. Anyway, the difference was this kid got to stay at home (Greenville) and is thriving there.

Matt Diaz It is unfortunate because Dr. Agnew, like many of the other faculty that make Erskine exceptional, cares about students and their well being.
There are many ways the school could flourish financially. The people that work in the cafeteria could be turned into work-studies, saving lots of money while making it possible for students to afford Erskine.
The people who run Erskine do not realize that making one student upset costs more than making 9 students happy. The one upset student will not just not recommend Erskine, but will discourage it. This goes a lot further than the student encouraging a prospective student to attend Erskine.

Put yourself in the prospective student’s shoes, if you hear a single student complain and discourage you to attend, that will outweigh almost anything, except possibly a full-ride scholarship.

Anyways, Jesus tells us about those rich people (the kind that reduce people to money. Talk about being at odds with the Erskine mission statement!):

“For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

or

“Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’

Or in Sirach, for any Catholics here, or those that read Sirach:

My son, do not cheat a poor man of his livelihood or keep him waiting with hungry eyes. Do not tantalize a starving man or drive him to desperation in his need. If a man is desperate, do not add to his troubles or keep him waiting for the charity he asks. Do not reject the appeal of a man in distress or turn your back on the poor; when he begs for alms, do not look the other way and so give him reason to curse you, for if he curses you in his bitterness, his Maker will listen to his prayer. Make yourself popular in the assembly, and show deference to the great. When a poor man speaks to you, give him your attention and answer his greeting politely. Rescue the downtrodden from the oppressor, and be firm when giving a verdict.

Jay West Matt, you make Erskine proud my friend. People like you are the reason alumni have hope!

Matt Diaz I’m not criticizing Dr. Norman, or whoever else make the financial decisions, but if a person in need comes to you in need, you are to give just as Jesus gave to us when we were in need.

In the end, God will not care about inerrancy, young earth creationism, supralapsarianism, angelology, or demonology, but whether you gave. All the blessings we enjoy are Divine deposits, committed to our trust on this condition, that they should be dispensed for the benefit of our neighbors

But whoever has the world’s goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him?

Jay West That is what is so odd. You can commute if you went to Dixie and live in the surrounding area. The truth from when I was VP is that there is a loss of money when students choose to live off of campus. The line is so gray that if it was challenged, I seriously doubt it woould hold up in court. Evidently, in the end the president gets to make a personal decision. If not, why would the student be told to meet with Norman?

Jay West Matt is spot on. People see more than they hear!

Amanda Roach I had to fight my senior year to be allowed to live of campus because I couldn’t afford to live in the dorms. I was denied once ( i think because of my GPA) and had to apply again. The second time I explained to them that if I didn’t live of campus I couldn’t attend Erskine. Period. Dr Agnew did everything she could to find a way for me to move off campus. There have been many other examples of this sort of thing unfortunately.

Jay West It doesn’t surprise me that Dr. Agnew would do everything she could to help a student! Erskine is very fortunate to have her in a leadership role. I went to Erskine with her back in the dark ages. She still looks like a college student and I look like her grandfather.

Hailey Whitfield Walker I think it is totally going against what EC stands for…I can think of many times when I was there (96-00) when Robyn and Monty would go to the ends of the earth in order to support their students! Robyn especially was there for me many times and took it upon herself to ‘go to bat for me’ w/ a prof one time. That’s what “Student Services” is supposed to be about…having all of the control in the president’s hands isn’t good for anyone! I know that if I had lost part of my financial aid money, then I would have had no choice but to leave the school that I loved. Yet again, this is showing all of us that EC is changing too much and not necessarily for the better!

Mary Elizabeth Todd ‎@Matt- you are right on and you do give me hope- I think also if you give to all these away things but do not help the person right there in front of you- then you have failed- God will forgive you but you have missed a moment.

Jay West I had the pleasure of eating with Matt’s parents at an Erskine event. I can tell you that his faith is very real and genuine, just like that of his parents. I am proud to have a young man unashamed of his faith but open to wrestling with life and faith. I have a feeling this will not be the last we hear of Matt Diaz. He has some of the rare qualities and passion of people who make a global difference!

Kevin Metz The Philos are proud of him, too. It is refreshing to see a student with intelligence post.

Jay West Well, I was a lowly Chi, but my wife was a Philo, and my son is a Philo. As the great philosopher, John Cougar Mellancamp says, “Rock on!”

Mary Elizabeth Todd i love Mellancamp-I think of his little pink houses as great.

Jay West His mother-in -law lives on Lake Greenwood!

Jennifer Brice West What is even more disturbing is that Vardon and Merry offered the student a room at their house. Norman said no! What is the deal?!?!?

Gary Bordogna Erskine is no longer Erskine.

Ann Patrick Sanders I seem to remember that Dr. Norman said that one of Erskine’s missions is to help the poor.

Jennifer Brice West He must have rethought that philosophy!

Selected posts from AFIE, 9/17

Ron Barnett If there are any current Erskine students in this group, or if any alumni in the group know of any current students who would be willing to talk on the record about these issues for The Greenville News, please email me at rbarnett@greenvilleonline.com

Mary Lou Holmes Ron, thanks for the straight talk in your article.

Mary Lou Holmes Perhaps a follow up article on the accreditation controversy and what it means to exercise “undue influence” over a Board of Trustees?

Ron Barnett good idea, Mary Lou. I didn’t get around to checking with SACS about whether they’re up on the latest developments.

Janis Cunningham

http://www.nas.org/polArticles.cfm?Doc_Id=2182

Another perspective of current events……

“Science, Faith, and Academic Freedom: Erskine College Swats a Gadfly”

NAS – The National Association of Scholars :: Articles and Archives Science, Faith, and Academic Fre

www.nas.org

Scholars and citizens working together to re-civilize higher education

David Dangerfield No solid research on faculty requirements thirty five years ago. Disappointing. Can only guess where they got their info.

Janis Cunningham I don’t think anyone has ever said that the hiring requirements were the same 35 years ago. I think it is obvious that they were not. I don’t think that is the issue.

David Dangerfield So, you don’t think the fact that faculty hiring requirements HAVE changed is an “issue” to me and others?

Becky Lauderdale Definitely a different perspective. Phyllis Schlafly and David Horowitz have ties to this outfit and since the organization is against “creeping liberalism” and multiculturalism, I wonder how supportive the NAS is toward Liberal Arts ducation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Association_of_Scholars

Janis Cunningham David: It may be an issue to some people, but it doesn’t have anything to do with the point of the article that private colleges have the legal right to set their own mission and other requirements for the organization.

Thomas R. Morrison ‎…and more on the National Association of Scholars — www.nytimes.com/2008/09/22/education/22conservative.html

Gary Bordogna Janis: I strongly suggest that you ask that question to an attorney. If the private college gets any state or federal money, or if the students attending get any state or federal money, the college does not “have the legal right to set their own mission and other requirements for the organization”. Why do you think BJU let African-American students attend?

Eric Goodwin Gary, refer to Title IX, Section 3. “This section (on discrimination) shall not apply to any educational institution which is controlled by a religious organization if the application of this subsection would not be consistent with the religious tenets of such organization.”

Erskine has a legal right to religiously discriminate. The debate that is going to affect how I am taught as a student is rather whether it is good that Erskine religiously discriminates.

Gary Bordogna Sorry, I disagree. Looks like a possible court case.

William Crenshaw Janis — you mean a perspective uniformed by research. It amazes me that a group that calls themselves the National Association of Scholars has “scholarship” that amounts to looking at secondary sources only — the local reporters, who did real primary source research on the story, don’t cloak themselves in such pretension. And they made what facts they did glean fit their political agenda.

And you latched onto it from the very objective Aquila Report.

Give up, Janis, and go away. But stay tuned.

Eric Goodwin Dr. Crenshaw, I would appreciate your perspective on the legal right of Erskine to require professors to believe in inerrancy and be evangelical Christians.

William Crenshaw Eric — you need to stay tuned too.

Notice that Janis and Eric simply ignore Schlafly and Horowitz.

Why are they still on this board again???????????

William Crenshaw Do you think that’s what has happened Eric? That I was fired for my beliefs. That’s not what Norman and Christie say . . .

Eric Goodwin I was simply curious about your views on the matter, since Gary and I disagreed. In class you were never short of answers about a wide range of subjects.

David A. Danehower Janis – This site – the “National Association of Scholars” simply disgusts me. First of all, the REAL “NAS” is the long-held and widely recognized acronym for the National Academy of Sciences – without a doubt the most prestigious group of academics, scientists and scholars in the US. This site is clearly attempting to hijack that acronym and use it to its own rather dis-ingenious advantage. The list of Affiliates, who are identified as “Presidents” without careful study would lead one to believe that they, in some cases, were Presidents of academic institutions. That would be quite untrue! Take a look at the affiliate list – most of these “Presidents” don’t have “.edu” at the end of their email addresses. Those very few who do are not Presidents of the Institutions with whom they are listed as being associated. Here is a link to an article about the one person listed in SC as being President/affiliate:

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/category/individuals/christina-jeffrey

Now there is a high quality scholar! The NAS site really angers me – it is amongst the worst ring wing subterfuge I have seen in a long, long time. Even a quick read tells me that it is aimed at undermining academics through distortion and subterfuge.

@ Thomas – Thanks for the link. I intend to educate myself on this bunch.

Janis Cunningham David Danehower, the political persuasion of the people behind the site is of absolutely no interest to me. We all know that there are religious affiliated schools that have the legal right in this country to set their mission, hiring requirements, etc. If it was illegal for a private college to do so, then schools such as Covenant, Biola, Wheaton, Liberty, etc. would not exist.

Gary Bordogna Janis: Tell us what is your interest in Erskine? Would you be interested in EC if a court case ruled against the BOT, or if it became independent?

Selected posts from AFE, 9/18

David A. Danehower Want to know what David Norman has been doing with his time over the past few months? Now I know why he couldn’t come out and speak to alumni about Erskine! Apparently he has been spending his time revising/creating a new Employee Handbook. Here’s the link:

http://www.erskine.edu/faculty-staff/Handbook-8-5-2011.pdf

The initial tone of this document says a lot. I am unsure if a prior Employee Handbook existed. If so, and if anyone has a copy, I would very much like to see it. It is also unclear to me if this document also suffices for the Faculty Handbook. I would like clarification on that question if anyone at Erskine can offer it.

http://www.erskine.edu/faculty-staff/Handbook-8-5-2011.pdf

www.erskine.edu

Selected posts from 9/19, AFE

David Dangerfield

http://www.indexjournal.com/main.asp?SectionID=8&SubSectionID=154&ArticleID=6914

Erskine’s ‘mission’ takes a hard right – Index-Journal – Greenwood, SC

www.indexjournal.com

Mary Elizabeth Todd Now this is getting good

Doug Bowen Who wrote this one?

P. Mark Wilson An editorial?

David Dangerfield Ehhh . . . there are at least two problems. 1) The synod did not “exercise its power” last March when it removed trustees. The Synod did not have power to remove trustees, and it admitted as much in June when it asked the BOT to change the EC Charter to GIVE them permission 2) The notion that the relationship between the college and Synod is “unclear” is a farce. The relationship has been clear for many years. Some “clearly” disregarded that relationship.

Ann Clarke Judd Excellent editorial that summarizes the situation well, particularly the mission paradox. It is difficult to understand how Erskine can “flourish” as a liberal arts college while the church continues to push a literalists/fundamentalist world view as a requirement for faculty and staff. (and perhaps students someday if only “mission ready” students are recruited) Reference Greenville News article for the quote from Chief Communications Officer, Cliff Smith, defining the position of the ARP Church on “literal interpretation”.

William Crenshaw This is what we could never get Janis or the others to admit, of course, and now Cliff Smith has done it for us: dogma DOES trump modern scientific understanding; facts ARE unimportant obstacles to be swept aside; indoctrination IS more important than education. We owe Cliff our thanks for lifting the veil just enough to confirm the agenda we’ve always suspected: a purge is on, an intellectual and spiritual purge. It’s just as The Mirror editorial of a few years back by a SAFE student said: “Our way or the highway.”

And for fighting the hard right, anti-intellectual move and the prime movers, we are accused of being “disloyal to Erskine.”

The Norman Conquest combined with Louis XIV:

L’état c’est moi.

Caleb McMahan Excellent article! Nice to see more publicity on all of this absurdity. I think it’s critical that more people (e.g. the local community, etc.) become well aware of what’s going on.

Selected posts from AFIE, 9/19

William Crenshaw Questions for Cliff #1: An offer you can’t refuse . . .

So while the administration is hunkered down beneath its Cone of Silence, and while Chuck blasts his Wall of Sound from a mega bull (in every sense of the word) horn, real information about my firing has been hard to come by.

Until now.

I know this is heresy (no trial, please) but over at arpbombast.com, Chuck is worth a read, if for no other reason than to know where the wild things are. Yes, his poisonous invective is simply dreary after more than a paragraph or two, and yes, he’s often spectacularly wrong, but now and then, especially when he’s been talking to one of his spies, he stumbles over a golden nugget of truth. In his celebrations of my demise, he claimed that the powers-that-be offered me two years salary to walk away.

He’s right. They did.

Which brings us to QFC #1: Why?

If a tenured holder of an endowed chair with thirty-five years of service has done something so egregious as to require firing, shouldn’t he simply be fired? Should he, especially in times of financial trouble for Erskine (to wit, the emergency donation pleas of June to Erskine alumni and alumnae), I say, should he be offered a bribe when what he deserves is an unceremonious dismissal?

But rather than being given the boot, I got this offer: my salary to be continued for the next two years!

In return for what, you may ask? Just two requirements:

1. Go away.

2. Say nothing.

Man, now that’s an easy gig. Sit on my rear and get paid while somebody else gets paid to do my job for me.

Cool . . .

Except — if I have done something wrong, why offer me a reward? Or a bribe? Because, let’s face it, we are talking hush-money here.

Well, that’s only half of the story, of course. Bribery on the one hand; extortion on the other.

Now this is stage 1 of the dismissal process; it’s called the “mutual consent” stage. Here’s its description from the Faculty Manual:

***Procedures (Tenured faculty only)
In addition to demonstrating adequate cause for terminating a tenured faculty appointment, the College will insure that both individual rights and its own institutional integrity are preserved through procedures that guarantee due process. If termination takes the form of dismissal for cause, the College will follow this procedure:

1. Preliminary Proceedings
When questions about the fitness of a tenured faculty member arise, the President, in consultation with the appropriate academic vice president, will seek to resolve the matter with the tenured faculty member in private. If the matter is not resolved by mutual consent, the President will formulate a statement describing the grounds for dismissal. (plot point. 35-36)***

Now the word “mutual” implies a quality of agreement and cooperation; “consent” implies the same thing (from “con-” — together, and “sentire” —to feel.) An image of a cooperative discussion moving toward a common decision.

The reality was this: you either take the offer of two years’ salary (bribery) or we fire you (extortion). The carrot or the club.

“So you’re making me an offer I can’t refuse,” I said to the president.

“Yes,” he said, without hesitation, without looking up from his document.

It was clear that he hadn’t seen The Godfather. So I told him about the horse‘s head in the bed of its owner, and I pointed out that he was acting like a mobster. Then he said that wasn’t the kind of offer he was making.

But it was. Lower than The Godfather, actually. Really bad movie dialogue: Now we can do dis da hard way, or we can do dis da easy way. Da choice is yours. Ya takes da dough, or it’s curtains, ya got me?

I got you. I told the president I’d discuss it with my lawyer.

It was an offer I did refuse. Couldn’t take hush money. It came down to that.

Since the president wants to be a don without the benefit of having seen The Godfather or read Sun-Tzu, I left him with another piece of advice: Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer.

So the Question for Cliff is this: why the muscle play? Why get all mobbed up? If I’m guilty of some firing offense, why don’t you just do the right thing and fire me clean and simple?

Jonathan Breazeale As I said on the other thread, “SUPERB!!!” As I will add on this thread, morality is hard to find in this day and age.

Gary Bordogna Lawyer up, put them on the stand, and (hopefully) the present board will vote to cut ties to EC.

Mary Elizabeth Todd As Noman said in his post he removed and I say back to him and his cohorts, “You guys sound really mean.”

Thanks for your stand Dr. C- the Viking blood is coming out.

Jonathan Breazeale When you run off cornerstones of Erskine for stupid reasons, that justifies being mean.

Aldon Knight This is awesome Bill. Clearly this is EXACTLY what most of us thought it was! A panzy administration with a weak goal grasping at straws to put forward their thinly veiled quest for a “pure race” of Christians, and plying their most vocal opponents with hush money. Clearly, not only could Norman not fire you for cause, but in fact, you have exemplified what it is to stand up for your beliefs and embody the very ideals of a productive faculty member. It is truly a statement of integrity when you not only embody those ideals for 35 years in the classrooms of Erskine College, but when you stand tall within those same ideals when the going is at its toughest. I applaud you. I applaud you. I had to say it twice.

Mary Lou Holmes Hush money AND a slush fund. Question for the day. Where did Norman get his slush fund. Answer?

Linda Young Price Dr. C: thank you for your openness. I ‘like’ this post SO MUCH it hurts!

Beth Caldwell Buzogany I’ve always been a fan, but my admiration for you just soared! If you venture over to Asheville while you are at Lake Junaluska, this time or any visit in the future, my husband and I will take you on a pub crawl to sample some great beers and toast your integrity! Just message me…

Jay West HERO! It seems to me that you have opened the door for the adminstration to make it public why they fired you. I am sure we all would appreciate, though bogus they will be, their reasons. As well, I am sure this is just another play in the game of Chutes and Ladders. Of all of the administrative members asked to resign, leave, or layed off, how many had similar conversations? What is the BOT thinking? Norman is compounding a liability problem for them on a daily basis! However, the once sheltered students have seen the light. No longer are they kept away from the truth, but the truth, now visible, is serving as a catalyst to organize them.

Amanda Roach What Beth said, only I’m in Hendersonville.

Selected posts from AFIE, 9/20

Beth Caldwell Buzogany I found it interesting that the administrators said they have “a problem with lesbianism” on campus. So what is “the problem”? I’m sure those young women, and any gay young men, would be surprised to know that they are characterized as “a problem”. I hope they know that Jesus doesn’t look at them as “a problem.”

Jay West What about ministers who make unwelcomed advances toward members the congregation? Don’t think it hasn’t happened.

Gary Bordogna Beth, Jesus didn’t, but TOS does.

Jay West Does that mean that all ministers automatically are guilty?

Jay West As a great ARP minister and philosopher once said, “I don’t know why the church is so opposed to ordaining homosexuals, they have been doing it for years!”

Beth Caldwell Buzogany Jay, Your last 2 comments are spot on!!

Stacy Hall Yeah, I found it yawningly funny, myself. I envisioned hundreds of militant lesbians roaming campus in search of targets. Oh, dear, oh, dear – what has Erskine come to?

Rich Harris Does anyone else find Wilson’s comment subtly hilarious? I mean, he describes a seemingly random violent incident, then goes whining to the administration, and, of course, it’s all about lesbianism. Lesbians on a rampage! Erskine lesbians!

Rich Harris sorry, I deleted and reposted, thereby getting the order out of whack.

Becky Lauderdale And said blogger enjoyed every minute telling (and retelling) about it, no doubt.

Stacy Hall Lol! Ok, my post 4 up answers Rich’s post, two up, for anybody trying to follow :)

Rich Harris I was told there’d be no math! ;-)

Ax Dillingham Oh no, two people are in love. AND THEY’RE THE SAME GENDER! The world’s coming to an end.

Stacy Hall I really am laughing out loud, at both Rich and Ax’s posts :)

Selected post from AFIE, 9/21

Mary Lou Holmes News from the Planet of Norman: We are not opening a Bible College. REALLY? We are not on a witch hunt? REALLY? There is no Master Plan. REALLY? Why do the alumni doubt you Dr. Norman?

Gary Bordogna Where did he state this?

Whitney Tillman Marcengill Oh my! Welcome to the new Arp…

Mary Lou Holmes This is what Norman shared with alumni in Due West tonight.

Whitney Tillman Marcengill And where will he be sharing next?!

Mary Lou Holmes Anderson I believe.

Gary Bordogna Did anyone call him on it?

Nancy Hall Gautier Who went to this one? Chuck is certainly on a witch hunt. :D

Whitney Tillman Marcengill Guess we are gonna have to go to the Greenwood meeting…

Mary Lou Holmes And another jewel for the gullible: The Church does not run Erskine. The adminstration does not make the decisions.

Mary Lou Holmes Yes, the alumni called baloney.

Becky Lauderdale The Devil made him do it.

Stacy Hall We’re off to see the wizard, the wonderful wizard of Oz!

Whitney Tillman Marcengill Oh, but it is so just what we dealt with at our home church. When does it STOP?!?!?!?!

Jay West What, is he now the ambassador for plausible deniability? Just because you say something does not make it true, unless you grew up denying truth for a pseudo reality that you create within the confines of your own imagination!

Michael Lake Because he’s younger than most of us with little to no life experience.

Jay West Can we get the schedule of alumni chapter meetings posted?

Nancy Hall Gautier The Church does not run Erskine and the administration does not make decisions? SO who is running the ship? Is he saying that it is the BOT?

Mary Lou Holmes Yep. He is saying the Board of Trustees runs the show.

Mary Lou Holmes Norman is twisting in the wind. All by himself. Who should be facing the alumni with him? Dick deWitt, Turbeville, Wilson, Hathaway.

Mary Lou Holmes Anderson, Maye, Mulner, Marsh, McDonald, Steven Suits, Andy Putnam.

Stacy Hall If the BOT makes all the decisions, why do they need an overpaid, arrogant and undiplomatic mouthpiece as the middle man?

Mary Lou Holmes When they throw Norman under the bus, don’t forget who appointed him in the first place. Rob Patrick, Paul Patrick, Bill Evans.

Jay West Notice, he is implying the Board of Trustees runs the show only after the last class joined the board so he could solidify the numbers.

Mary Lou Holmes Norman was not here when the Moderator’s Commission and Dick deWitt started this mess.

Stacy Hall They are throwing him under the bus now – or he’s throwing himself.

Mary Lou Holmes He is still the President. Until he resigns or they ask him to resign.

Jay West Let’s see: he is the President of an institution in crisis; he disassociated himself from the alumni which provided the buildings, scholarships and operating capital; at least two faculty support him; and most of the students don’t like him. Wouldn’t you think the Board of Trustees has more interest in the institution surviving with academic credibility than in protecting one bad decision?

Stacy Hall If this alumni meeting was as unpleasant for him as it sounds, I doubt he will attend any more, but will sequester himself in the tower of bitter solitude and consider the next name on the hatchet list.

Gary Bordogna What did he say when the alums called BS?

Mary Lou Holmes The Board of Trustees does not speak with one voice, at least not right away. It certainly does not act swiftly. The group that will throw Norman under the bus is the group that supports the Moderator’s Commission.

Mary Lou Holmes Gary, I’m not sure. I’ll try to find out.

Mary Lou Holmes Does anyone know who is on the Faculty Executive Committee?

Stacy Hall I posted it a few minutes ago and somebody deleted it. Go to the original blog, and the names are listed.

Nancy Hall Gautier I posted it too but it is now gone.

William Crenshaw The Faculty Executive Committee
Brooks Kuykendall, chair
Naoma Nelsen, secretary
Gid Alston
Brad Parker
Steve Sniteman

Doug Bowen really people you are trying to hide real, well as far as we can tell, information? names are Brooks Kuykendall, chair
Naoma Nelsen, secretary
Gid Alston
Brad Parker
Steve Sniteman

Doug Bowen Bill are those right? We really cant tell if the info is right or not

William Crenshaw I copied my list directly from a letter sent to me by the FEC.

William Crenshaw I assume my list is showing up? I posted it three times

Doug Bowen Same one that Wilson got apparently

Stacy Hall What is the point of deleting this list, really?

Stacy Hall So far, Bill, it’s still showing.

William Crenshaw Thanks, Stacy. I’ll take two of them down.

Stacy Hall Yw. I am not for protecting the identities of people whose actions directly affect others in a negative fashion for the gain of . . . what?

William Crenshaw I’ll talk about this later, but the FEC reached its conclusion regarding proper procedure in spite of the AAUP opinion and without asking me one single bloody thing.

You really do expect more of colleagues and PhDs, you know?

Stacy Hall I expect more of colleagues who are rowing the same boat I am, for sure.

Stacy Hall How can a procedural review not ask questions of the individual most affected? Really?

William Crenshaw I would think that would be so obvious that it would go without saying. Apparently not at Erskine

Stacy Hall I’m no PHD,but the first tenet of protecting yourself is finding a group that can back you when you turn and face the danger, because they know you will take their back, as well. Erskine faculty has lost that, I guess. Turn and run from the current victim, and just wait for the knife in your own back,’just hope you can outrun somebody, anybody.

Mary Lou Holmes For the good of Erskine, we have to make sure the voices of the independent Alumni are represented on the Board of Trustees. Before Norman is replaced. Right now a new search committee would look just like the “study” committee. It would be stacked in favor of Andy Putnam and Steven Suits. We don’t need another candidate just like Norman or worse.

John Randolph Harrison I do not believe the meeting for him in Greenville was unpleasant for him at all. He tried to Explain the misinformation on the social media, the recent newspaper articles and the firing of a tenured professor before taking questions. Apprised the audience that he asked the board 3 times if they were trying to make EC a Bible college and three timed was informed NO. He also made it clear the BOT was running the college.

Mary Lou Holmes what is the “misinformation”? this is the story that was put out there last year when the Board of Trustees was ousted as well. The message was “misinformation abounds”. However, there was no difference between the information on the social media and the truth. At least the distinction made no legal difference. Back then we were told the Board wasn’t fired, they were removed.

William Crenshaw Randy — WHAT misinformation on the social media, the newspaper, the firing? What exactly did he say? Was he specific? Or was it just stuff like “We‘re not turning Erskine into Bob Jones?”

Mary Lou Holmes Again I suspect that the Other Side will be saying 30 plus people have not been FIRED. SO WHAT? the exodus has been massive and it has been swift. Whether it is an ouster, a forced resignation or an outright dismissal the legal implications are the same. Just like last year.

Mary Lou Holmes Why is Michael Bush gone? Why did Dr. Hering not get tenure? Why is Neely Gaston gone? Why is Dr. Crenshaw gone? Why did Dr. Alston get replaced? Why isn’t Steve Southwell on the Board? Why is Woody Gone? Why is Cory gone? Why is Corey gone? Why is Gail gone? Why is Sharon Gone? Where have they all gone? This is not misinformation this is FACT.

Mary Lou Holmes Where is Wes McAlister? Where is our Registrar? Where are the families of the ten employees let go last June?

Mary Lou Holmes Why is there only one person left in the whole entire admissions department who has been there longer than Norman himself?

Mary Lou Holmes Is this reality or is it fiction?

Mary Lou Holmes Where is our women’s basketball coach?

William Crenshaw Randy — did you get the feeling that Dr. Norman was answering with specifics?

John Randolph Harrison He was very generic Mary Lou. Just making statements like fear is spread on the social media that was incorrect and not based on facts. I didn’t pick up any specifics from his comments. One of the girls said she taped most of his comments.

John Randolph Harrison He used an illustration about if someone stated Bonner was on fire it would have more hits than another statement that I really can’t remember which was not as exciting. Mind started wandering about then wondering if anyone was going to challenge him.

William Crenshaw Thanks for the info, Randy! Appreciate it.

Sarabeth Scott A gentleman I didn’t know (was class of 84, I believe) made a comment about how difficult it is to be an alum and answer questions on a Sunday morning about an article in the paper concerning Erskine, and how we as alums would like to be proud of our college. He made some really great suggestions about the importance of communication and using social media to the college’s advantage (I took that to mean he was referring to the “Erskine Experience” that we all knew and loved, and not the administration’s advantage). Dr. Norman continued to downplay social media in his response, by saying that people don’t want to read the good, they only want to read the bad (Randy’s comments above about example of Bonner catching on fire, etc.).

Matt Diaz Mattel called and they want Ken back

Selected posts from AFE, 9/21

David Dangerfield I’m told that some leaders of the EC Foundation will be could hauled up on ecclesiastical charges or subjected to an inquiry within their own sessions, much like Dr. Parker Young was last year.

Working to get more details.

Doug Bowen Ok is the new facebook hiding comments or is someone censoring them? I know I saw two comments to this post

Rick Beard wow…this would be very disturbing if true.

Ann Clarke Judd That will seal the fate of Erskine. I hope denominational leadership gets control of this situation quickly. This behavior suggests a retaliatory strategy rather than one that promotes the mission of the church, seminary, and college.

David Dangerfield Doug, I got more correct information and I took down my original post. I’m sorry for the confusion.

Nancy Hall Gautier I think David removed and added to his first posting which then removed the comments with it.

Doug Bowen thanks for clearing that up David

Stacy Hall It removed mine. I don’t understand how the Foundation and the Church are connected. Does the Foundation condemn the Church? Does the Church have new bilblical passages which prohibit the Foundation?

Rick Beard The two are not connected…The Foundation (while being way to quite in the process IMO) are trying to save Erskine.

Rick Beard excuse my grammar pls…was thinking plural since there is a group there.

David Dangerfield There are leaderso n the EC Foundation who are also ARPs

Gary Bordogna The church must truly be scared of the EC Foundation to do this. Hopefully, actions like this will backfire on TOS.

Stacy Hall Of course, David, as it should be. I simply don’t see how that exposes them to punitive action from the Church.

David Dangerfield Dont you remember when Parker Young was subjected to this type of thing last year???

Stacy Hall Yes. And the parallel here is . . .?

John Randolph Harrison It seems unclear now David the way its written.

David Dangerfield Sorry, I tried to correct it in a hurry:

I’m told that some leaders of the EC Foundation could hauled up on ecclesiastical charges or subjected to an inquiry within their own sessions, much like Dr. Parker Young was last year.

Working to get more details

Jennifer Wix Sexton This all sounds a lot like the Salem Witch Trials. And, we all know how well that turned out.

Ann Clarke Judd This behavior could be detrimental to the ARP denomination too. If the objective is to have far fewer members and churches then this will surely contribute to a successful venture.

Stacy Hall It can be hoped that the heart of the real ARP church will at some point stand up and say, “no more”.

Ann Clarke Judd I know there are rational, kind, and astute people in the denomination that can see where this leads.

Jonathan Breazeale Just for the record, what in the world does “TOS” stand for?

Gary Bordogna TOS=”The other side”.

Craig Balch ‎@Stacy – I’ve been waiting for the members in the pews to stand up and stop this, but they haven’t yet. Maybe they are afraid of what will happen to them.

Stacy Hall And that fear will be a self-prophecy. If you won’t stand behind the ones who are being brave, who will stand behind you when the persecution fever really catches and your name comes up?

Jonathan Breazeale Thank the Good Lord I’m Episcopalian.

Stacy Hall I can come up with some other “TOS” explanations, but will leave it with Gary’s as that it the true, original and actual one :)

Stacy Hall Yes, just like a lot of Jews believed what they were being told during the Holocaust.

David Dangerfield I just made a contribution to the EC Foundation. I very much appreciate the Godly service these men and women have volunteered for the health of Erskine College and Theological Seminary. They are salt of the earth and deserve our support.

William Crenshaw Oh, don’t worry, Janis’s hands are clean. She bears no responsibility for anything . . .

Ann Clarke Judd When the governance issue is resolved, there is a viable independent Board of Trustees, and Erskine is once again the traditional Christian Liberal Arts College that I, and my family, have supported for decades, I will again contribute to the Annual Scholarship Fund. I was the Annual Fund Chair last year and this has been a difficult decision for me. Heavy handed control over the faculty vis a vis forced affirmation of “inerrancy” and the continued departure of Erskine alumni from the administration of the college will not give alumni confidence that the traditional Erskine is part of the future strategy. This may, in fact, be an irreversible situation – so many fine Erskine alumni have already been excused from employment. I will do wihat I can to convince others that this is the wrong path for the college. If the course does not change, then there are many other fine Christian institutions that have stable governance, experienced leadership, and excellent academics to which I can contribute my charitable dollars.

Beth Alexander Rickenbaugh So Janis, how long have you supported Erskine College? I and my family have been supporting the college for generations, not just with donations, but by sending students and establishing a pastor’s institute for the seminary. Man up Janis!

Janis Cunningham I am going to take a little break because I can see that it would be best. But before I do, to Rick I will just say that things like” bible college” and “Bob Jones” come up far too frequently and those ideas are false and have always been false. I prefer to deal with the truth because I think that is the only way any progress can be made. I believe there are some wonderful alumni who truly seek to deal with the truth as well. To them: I hope you know I respect you even though we may have some differences.

My prayers are with my denomination because I can see that there is some turmoil within which needs to be resolved. And my prayers are with Erskine, that the Lord will direct the paths of those who can work all this out without destroying the school. I think one possible option is to let the college become independent and let the seminary remain a ministry of the church. But may the Lord’s will be done first and foremost.

Beth Caldwell Buzogany Since your ARP church bears no resemblance to the one that we all grew up with, and since your ARP church has a vision for Erskine that is narrow-minded, anti-intellectual, anti-women,and exclusionary, we will let you and your ARP church provide financial support for that school. We who graduated from the actual Erskine College and who come from families that founded her would be unfaithful to the formerly academic, inclusive, Christ-following, all-loving college by contributing to the shell that remains. We are called to be good stewards with our money; to that end, we are giving to the EC Foundation.

Rick Beard Janis, please don’t stop what you are doing. You are providing clarity for many of us…

Stacy Hall Janis, find peace in your break from here. Your last paragraph gives me hope that you see a glimmer of the issues.

Jonathan Breazeale Janis, your “taking a break” is like the United States “taking a break” from Vietnam.

Donna Miller Davis Wow Beth I had no I dear about some of the ARP churches. Little scarey for this Episcopalian..!

Selected posts from AFE, 9/22

Holly Lesesne Kennerly My dad is being “investigated”….are you kidding me?? This is bordering on ridiculous! The session of the Spartanburg ARP Church, under the direction of Peter Wade, brought the charges. Is it not bad enough that he has to endure what is happening to his beloved Erskine that he has dedicated his life to…now they want to kick him out of the Due West ARP Church & strip him of being an elder??? I thank God that Tum & Totsy are not here to witness this.

John Randolph Harrison This is really sad Holly. I figured it would have to start with the session and go to the presbyteries. There had to be a conspiracy to bring all this together at one time.

Mary Lou Holmes Who is the pastor of the Spartanburg ARP church? Is it still Morrie Lorring?

Gary Bordogna Holly: Your father is a man of great integrity and honor, as are the rest of the people on the board of the Erskine Foundation. He is being attacked by these people because they view him as a threat to their narrow mindedness, and ignorance.
When I go to Mass, I’ll light a candle and say a prayer for your dad, Dr. Gettys, Mr. Hunt, and Mr. Logan.

Michael Lake Holly…I’m outraged by this. Absolutely ridiculous. Your dad is a great man, and I’m furious.

Helen Elizabeth Malone Total bullshit. Holly, when I think of your dad I think of Erskine. And it is a witch hunt. Maybe TOS should think about how their behavior compares to Nazi Germany.

Gary Bordogna Rev. Peter A. Waid is the pastor of the Spartanburg ARP church.

Michael Lake Furthermore, I’d love to meet these cowards face to face…

Michael Lake Big Bill Lesesne personifies Erskine College

Michael Lake Or at least the Erskine College I remember.

Ann Clarke Judd Holly, I am so very sorry about this. Your family, nor the others, deserve this treatment from our church. Just awful behavior and from the husband of one of our school days classmates. Rev. Waid did a wonderful service at my uncle’s funeral last month. I can’t believe he would be involved in this. Can someone confirm that?

Melonie Tuck Shue Yet another reason I’ve left the ARP church….

Mary Lou Holmes Gary says Peter Waid is the pastor. If so, then I don’t see how he could live in the state of South Carolina and not know your father. The list of the accused reads like a who’s who of the pre-eminent legends of Erskine College. Dr. Hunt, Dr. Gettys, Lee Logan. Bill Lesesne.

Holly Lesesne Kennerly It is also very ironic that Mrs. Gettys, Mrs.Logan, & my mother are the only women deacons in the Due West ARP Church. (All wives of the “accused”)…

Mary Lou Holmes LESESNE auditorium. President Joab Mauldin Lesesne?

Michael Lake Ironic indeed!

Gary Bordogna As per the Spartanburg ARP church website, Rev. Peter A. Waid is the pastor. The website could be outdated, I don’t know.

Mary Elizabeth Todd This is way too sad- do they not know that we should not grieve the Holy Spirit- how can this not grieve the Holy Spirit

Holly Lesesne Kennerly ‎Ann Clarke Judd: It is confirmed. Dad was served papers.

John Randolph Harrison This is a travesty. I would hope the other members of the church would come to his aid.

Mary Lou Holmes Holly: “Targeted” I would say. The P.C.A. just this week voted to remove all possibility of women serving as deacons or “deaconesses” equally alongside men. It is considered to interfere with “possibly qualified men” who “might” want to serve. Mrs. Logan is the GGgranddaughter of the founding fathers. Her family and the Lesesnes have been the presidents, the professors and the administrators of Erskine from its very first days. Is there any doubt that there is a PURGE going on here?

William Crenshaw Papers? They have ecclesiastical summons?

Greta Smith Moore I can say that this pisses me off. Your Dad and Mom are the best. I can say that they can come to my church. I would love to have them.

John Randolph Harrison Holly, do you know how the charges are presented and the wording?

Nancy Hall Gautier Well this prompted me to make another donation to the foundation. Are they trying to make the ARP denomination even smaller?

Rick Beard Anybody else need a t-shirt for homecoming?

Nancy Hall Gautier Rick, I do. Not sure I can make it but am going to do my best. When is the deadline for ordering them?

Jim Ogilvie Guess it’s time to contact the newspaper reporters again ! THE GREAT ARP/ERSKINE PURGE ! That should REALLY get the area up in arms!

Rick Beard the shirts take about two weeks. I’ll message you with the info.

Jonathan Breazeale I hate to be so graphic but have them send me some papers to investigate me. I’ll use them for bathroom paper and send them back.

Mary Lou Holmes

The victims of the newest attack are Bill Lesesne, Bill Gettys, John Hunt and Lee Logan. Charges have been requested because Lesesne, Gettys, Hunt and Logan are part of the E C Foundation, Inc.

Beth Caldwell Buzogany I am so disgusted by this action! If I were an ARP, I would not give them a dime until they cleaned these power-hungry, hate-mongers out of the denomination!!

Mary Lou Holmes Helen: We will post and re-post and re-post all of the oaths of an elder that have SUPPOSEDLY been broken. So you can compare them to the teachings of Jesus and see for yourself. The oath for an elder clearly states that elders are allow…

Rick Beard I have known John Hunt all my life. He has done two surgeries on me personally. They do not come any finer. They have picked the wrong fight.

John Randolph Harrison Hopefully some of the big named ARP’s that have not wanted to get involved because they don’t like friction will see that these fine men are being persecuted and step up to the plate. They can’t stick their head in the sand forever and ignore this travesty.

John Randolph Harrison Do they not realize they are losing the ARP church they served in for years.

Mary Lou Holmes Dr. Hunt and his wife Betty are both on the Board of the EC Foundation. Together with Lee Logan, Bill Lesesne, Jim Gettys — these are the backbone and the living legends of Erskine. They have sustained Erskine and its fundraising for our lifetimes.

Mary Elizabeth Todd My question is what are they thinking? These are not unknowns to the ARP family- these are well thought of and loved individuals by not only the Erskine family but also the ARp family- they must be in arrogance overload to even think about going after these men. Maybe they need a 72 hour evaluation to check to see if they are okay because other that absolute arrogance I cannot explain their actions.

John Randolph Harrison Isn’t Betty Hunt formerly Betty Bigham? I remember her a a kid at Centennial. My dad used to fish with hers.

Rick Beard yes Randy

John Randolph Harrison Unbelievable.

Jonathan Breazeale I just found that I made ARP Talk! I’m so honored!

William Crenshaw Welcome to the clubbed

Mary Elizabeth Todd Jonathan- makes you think of that song in the 1970’s “cover of the rolling stone’ by the way it is the site that cannot be mentioned.

Jonathan Breazeale I’m standing here beside myself!

Nancy Hall Gautier Must mean you are doing something right. You are in good company if I do say so myself. :)

Holly Lesesne Kennerly My dad is being “investigated”….are you kidding me?? This is bordering on ridiculous! The session of the Spartanburg ARP Church, under the direction of Peter Wade, brought the charges. Is it not bad enough that he has to endure what is happening to his beloved Erskine that he has dedicated his life to…now they want to kick him out of the Due West ARP Church & strip him of being an elder??? I thank God that Tum & Totsy are not here to witness this.

John Randolph Harrison This is really sad Holly. I figured it would have to start with the session and go to the presbyteries. There had to be a conspiracy to bring all this together at one time.

Mary Lou Holmes Who is the pastor of the Spartanburg ARP church? Is it still Morrie Lorring?

Gary Bordogna Holly: Your father is a man of great integrity and honor, as are the rest of the people on the board of the Erskine Foundation. He is being attacked by these people because they view him as a threat to their narrow mindedness, and ignorance.
When I go to Mass, I’ll light a candle and say a prayer for your dad, Dr. Gettys, Mr. Hunt, and Mr. Logan.

Michael Lake Holly…I’m outraged by this. Absolutely ridiculous. Your dad is a great man, and I’m furious.

Helen Elizabeth Malone Total bullshit. Holly, when I think of your dad I think of Erskine. And it is a witch hunt. Maybe TOS should think about how their behavior compares to Nazi Germany.

Gary Bordogna Rev. Peter A. Waid is the pastor of the Spartanburg ARP church.

Michael Lake Furthermore, I’d love to meet these cowards face to face…

Michael Lake Big Bill Lesesne personifies Erskine College

Michael Lake Or at least the Erskine College I remember.

Ann Clarke Judd Holly, I am so very sorry about this. Your family, nor the others, deserve this treatment from our church. Just awful behavior and from the husband of one of our school days classmates. Rev. Waid did a wonderful service at my uncle’s funeral last month. I can’t believe he would be involved in this. Can someone confirm that?

Melonie Tuck Shue Yet another reason I’ve left the ARP church….

Mary Lou Holmes Gary says Peter Waid is the pastor. If so, then I don’t see how he could live in the state of South Carolina and not know your father. The list of the accused reads like a who’s who of the pre-eminent legends of Erskine College. Dr. Hunt, Dr. Gettys, Lee Logan. Bill Lesesne.

Holly Lesesne Kennerly It is also very ironic that Mrs. Gettys, Mrs.Logan, & my mother are the only women deacons in the Due West ARP Church. (All wives of the “accused”)…

Mary Lou Holmes LESESNE auditorium. President Joab Mauldin Lesesne?

Michael Lake Ironic indeed!

Gary Bordogna As per the Spartanburg ARP church website, Rev. Peter A. Waid is the pastor. The website could be outdated, I don’t know.

Mary Elizabeth Todd This is way too sad- do they not know that we should not grieve the Holy Spirit- how can this not grieve the Holy Spirit

Holly Lesesne Kennerly ‎Ann Clarke Judd: It is confirmed. Dad was served papers.

John Randolph Harrison This is a travesty. I would hope the other members of the church would come to his aid.

Mary Lou Holmes Holly: “Targeted” I would say. The P.C.A. just this week voted to remove all possibility of women serving as deacons or “deaconesses” equally alongside men. It is considered to interfere with “possibly qualified men” who “might” want to serve. Mrs. Logan is the GGgranddaughter of the founding fathers. Her family and the Lesesnes have been the presidents, the professors and the administrators of Erskine from its very first days. Is there any doubt that there is a PURGE going on here?

William Crenshaw Papers? They have ecclesiastical summons?

Greta Smith Moore I can say that this pisses me off. Your Dad and Mom are the best. I can say that they can come to my church. I would love to have them.

John Randolph Harrison Holly, do you know how the charges are presented and the wording?

Nancy Hall Gautier Well this prompted me to make another donation to the foundation. Are they trying to make the ARP denomination even smaller?

Rick Beard Anybody else need a t-shirt for homecoming?

Nancy Hall Gautier Rick, I do. Not sure I can make it but am going to do my best. When is the deadline for ordering them?

Jim Ogilvie Guess it’s time to contact the newspaper reporters again ! THE GREAT ARP/ERSKINE PURGE ! That should REALLY get the area up in arms !

Rick Beard the shirts take about two weeks. I’ll message you with the info.

Jonathan Breazeale I hate to be so graphic but have them send me some papers to investigate me. I’ll use them for bathroom paper and send them back.

Holly Lesesne Kennerly The charges are:(1)As elders they have promised “to submit in the spirit of love to the authority of the session & to the higher courts of the church” & “in all things to promote the unity,peace,purity,& prosperity of the church” (2)Expressing gratitude to individuals who make contributions to the EC Foundations instead of EC (3) Impugned the honor & reputation of the ARP Church by alleging that the synod acted “illegally” & for speaking of the synod as “an unreliable, capricious partner in dealing with EC (4)The Foundation was formed to support resistance to the efforts by the synod as it sought to insure missional fidelity @ EC (5)Supporting the Taylor,Chestnut,& Young lawsuit against EC (6)A stated value of the Foundation is to support Erskine as an institution in any civil litigation (7)The Foundation website expressed support for the recently terminated Dr. William Crenshaw,”a man known for his opposition to evangelical christianity & to the mission of EC as an evangelical liberal arts college”…So they are asking that my dad, Jim Gettys, Lee Logan & John Hunt be investigated by the Due West ARP session & the Young Memorial ARP session(John Hunt’s church) for their activities as directors of the EC Foundation & if it conflicts with their role as elders & whether ecclesiastical charges should be filed. (Please excuse any typos…I am typing this while cooking dinner!)

Mary Elizabeth Todd wow- so basically do and say as we tell you or we come get you also- talk about a “culture of intimidation”.

William Crenshaw Excellent — since they brought my name into it, I can sue them too. The list is getting longer. I’ll need to get a copy of the letter from Bill to send to my lawyer.

And the quotation about me is a lie, and it is therefore libel.

Ruth McDill Stukes Holly, this is just ridiculous….. What next?

Matt Diaz Invincible Inerrancy of the ARP Synod…

Rick Beard this is war

Holly Lesesne Kennerly ‎William Crenshaw: I am sure dad will provide you with a copy. He has kept quiet about it all for the last few days & as you would expect, is very upset…lucky for him, his daughter won’t be silenced!

Beck Bardin Eleazer Didn’t Peter Waid attend Erskine Seminary ? Seems like he was there in the early to mid 80s

John Randolph Harrison I think those of us that are no longer members of the ARP church need to seek membership and take the ARP church back from these new comers. We ought to have the numbers with others that are silent because they don’t know whats going on or are afraid to speak out.

Nancy Hall Gautier Randy, you think they would let us join? I know I am probably on some list of undesirables since I am one of the Three Witches of Due West. :D

Rick Beard i think the goofy guy on the other site lumped me in with the witches too.

Ann Clarke Judd ‎@Beck. Yes and I believe he is married to the former Anne Coad.

William Crenshaw The letter links me “in crime” with four people that I couldn’t be more proud to be associated with. I appreciate the “Free Bill Crenshaw” on the shirts, but it’s much broader than that now — since TOS, the hyperfunds, the interlopers have linked us, it’s should be “Free the Erskine 5.”

Mary Elizabeth Todd Randy, I have been thinking that also-this is going to take some very brave people-I am thinking men because the newcomers would not listen to a woman- we are somehow subhuman.

Rick Beard We did not know that they were going to actually cut Dr. C loose (free) when we designed the shirts. “Free Dr Crenshaw” now stands for much more. “Free Erskine” and “Keep Erskine Erskine” need no explanation.

Ann Clarke Judd Waid was a signatory on the complaint to Second Presbytery about the decision not to pursue the charges against Hering: From Aquila: And now, this 22nd day of October, A.D. 2010, Rev. James Loughner, Mr. Philip Malphrus, Mr. Earl Riddle, Rev. Peter Waid, Dr. Charles Wilson, Mr. Harold Wright, and Rev. Mark Wright complain against the action of Second Presbytery on October 12, 2010 in the matter of Unity ARP Church Session vs. James P. Hering,

William Crenshaw Amen, Rick

 

Mary Elizabeth Todd why does anyone listen to him we cannot name?

Susan Lewis What a shame.

Megan Ferguson Goodwin These people have made a mockery of Erskine and the ARP church. Just think of how many people (including myself) now feel anger and bitterness every time the ARP denomination is mentioned. I can’t stop crying and I can not reconcile these actions and the events of the past few years with the church I grew up in and loved.

Rick Beard I just noticed that Peter Waid is on the BOT. How convenient!

Mary Lou Holmes We can join the Due West ARP church. There are other ARP churches we can join. Not all of us are living in a city with no ARP churches. Many in the congregations don’t know their donations are going to pay Hathaway for a PCA style church crimes trial against Bill Lesesne. If they did know about it, maybe the congregations or the sessions would take action against the renegade ministers. In the ARP church, the congregations run things, not the Moderator. The Moderator is supposed to be ministerial, not powerful.

Mary Lou Holmes In Spartanburg, everyone knows the Lesesnes. Does the congregation know what is going on with the minister? Maybe they wouldn’t like it if they did know.

John Randolph Harrison ‎@megan I feel your pain. @ mary Lou I think they made a vital error in choosing to take such a ridiculous course of action against such men of integrity.

Mary Elizabeth Todd maybe the congregations should be informed-maybe the congregations need to take their ministers to task.

Mary Lou Holmes Peter Waid is on the Board of Trustees? Is he old enough to shave?

Rick Beard Jim Moore, can you check into Spartanburg billboards?

Rick Beard lol MLH

Mary Lou Holmes In that case, Peter Waid needs to resign from the Board of Trustees because he has a conflict of interest that is as wide as the Atlantic Ocean.

Mary Lou Holmes I know they have a hard time with ethics, but this is Ethics 101.

Mary Lou Holmes Let’s see if the Board of Trustees knows how to use its new “removal for cause” rules of the new By Laws. And if they don’t. Well we shall see what happens to them if they don’t.

Rick Beard I agree thatis a huge conflict of interest. If I was a member of his church I would be marching right over to his doorstep and demand to know what the heck he is thinking.

Mary Lou Holmes Everyone send your emails now to the Board and demand that Rev. Waid be removed from the Board of Trustees of Erskine College for a conflict of interest.

Mary Elizabeth Todd or what happens to them if they do and they are Arp

Jay West ‎@ Rick, I really like the billboard idea. We could put one in Seneca for Wilson, Spartanburg for Waid, Due West for Evans, etc..

Kevin Metz Sounds like the ARP denomination is going back to the days of the Inquisition. This is truly a shame. If these gentlemen are guilty of anything, it’s loving Erskine far more than the Synod does. It seems like the Synod is becoming more concerned with holding court than reaching anyone for God. I wonder how it can criticize EC for failing the faith part of its mission when they are blinded by their pride and this vengeful attitude.

Rick Beard the billboards turned into t-shirts for Due West.

Mary Lou Holmes Rev. Clint Davis needs to go too. He needs to be removed from the Alumni Association for putting the college in jeopardy of losing its accreditation and undermining the Board of Trustees.

Jay West I still can’t believe that Clint did that. At one point, he was mentored by Neely Gaston. You wouldn’t know that now!

John Randolph Harrison Have the others received “papers” also? If so who signed theirs?

Jay West Bill Lesesne and Lee Logan Investigated by ARPC! Unbelievable! For what? Trying to provide an avenue for alumni to give to the college they attended without supporting the ARPC takeover? The members of the EC Foundation are noble and demonstrate the passion we all have to see Erskine excel! Peter Waid, the minister who file the charges with Second Presbytery, graduated from Erskine Theological Seminary with a free education. He did not pay one dime. Not only did he receive a free education, but he was given monthly funds to provide for his family. His wife did not work because from their perspective it was unbiblical (lazy). Talk about being ungrateful!

Holly Lesesne Kennerly Read the charges I listed under my post…even more unbelievable!

Jim Ogilvie Did he not even have a work scholarship ?! I had to have one at EC to help my parents out some.

Mary Lou Holmes I would strongly caution everyone NOT to send him a message. Please do not send him any messages.

Mary Lou Holmes We are a peaceful group. We will win our battle in the courts and in the court of public opinion.

Mary Lou Holmes If you are angry, please take out your checkbook and write a check to the EC Foundation, Inc.

Mary Lou Holmes It should make everyone more motivated to know that this whiner, Rev. Waid, knows just who he is attacking.

Jay West Whst really bothers me is that Peter Waid was the recipient of a great education for no cost, and this is how he responds to the grace of others. Lee Logan was one of the reasons people contributed toward the education of seminary students.

Jay West Bill Lesesne is one of the finest people to ever live in Due West. As a member of the ARP church, he was always active in giving of time and money, some of which went to the seminary. UNGRATEFUL!

Jay West John Hunt of Anderson and his wife Betty are the salt of the earth. John is known in our parts as the finest surgeon in the area. He is the only person i want operating on me. Jenni has instructions to get me home from anywhere in the country to him if at all possible. As well, he and Betty have been pillars of the Young Memorial church. Betty has been the source of support for the music of the Church and the Music Conference each year at Bonclarken.

Jay West FINALLY: CARSON, WILSON, CORBITT, EVANS, CARLISLE AND OTHERS GET THEIR WISH! The ARP church now behaves just like the PCA- charges, charges, charges!

Jim Ogilvie Waid graduated from Covenent College in 1978. He and I have NO mutual friends on FB. Not one!

Gary Bordogna Dr. Gettys took me under his wing, and he is the reason why I got a degree from Erskine. I spent 30 years in the classroom, and I tried my best to follow the excellence in teaching he modeled. I’m so upset about this that I am truly a loss for words at this time.

Mary Lou Holmes Dr. Gettys taught me so much I could hardly tear myself away from Erskine when I graduated. He took us to Europe. He would tell the French people we met, “It is so good to SEE you,” as he shook their hands and patted them on the shoulder. It was as if we would be back any day.

William Crenshaw While I was at Erskine, no faculty member ever gave more to Erskine than Jim Gettys. No administrators were harder working than Bill Lesesne and Lee Logan.

Bob Brownlee I agree! And there was not a better classmate than John Hunt!

Linda Young Price Be aware, there are wheels turning. Just be aware. And pray for good to come from the turning wheels.

Linda Young Price And now the wheels are turning faster. Big wheel, keep on turning!

Jay West Chuck Wilson should have some sympathy with Bill Crenshaw being fired, since he also was fired by his church. Chuck hasn’t worked since, even though it has been a decade.

Mary Elizabeth Todd I am so glad someone mentioned that – so why does a man whose church fired him have a voice-obviously there was a reason that someone fired him.

Jay West Evidently, there is a young lady in the church that has the answers!

Mary Elizabeth Todd Ah—-so knowing what it was as I am sure those in power in the Synod know- why have they allowed him to continue.

Ax Dillingham What happened?

Jay West Anything at this point is hearsay, except a member of the presbytery told me, on good authority, what happened. I do not know firsthand. Let’s just see if the young lady comes forward.

Ben Ingram What was his last church?

Jay West Oconee ARP church

Ben Ingram Thanks.

Jay West ‎@Ax, it was bad enough to force him to resign and go on disability. He crawls this site, maybe he will fill in the blanks!

Ben Ingram Heck I would pay big money to the young lady if she would speak on the record about him. If she reads this just email me.

Jay West Maybe it is time!

Ben Ingram If she names the price I will get the funding.

Jay West LOL

Ben Ingram I will pay money for anything from the TOS’s past. You could have been in college with them, an ex, a former employee, lived in their neighborhood, etc. Just email and we can discuss terms of payment.

Selected post from AFE, 9/27

David Dangerfield

NEW MEMORIAL. I’m hearing that Unity ARP has filed a memorial to Second Presbytery. The wording and subject are basically the same as the one sent by Spartanburg ARP. Both memorials ask Due West ARP and Young Memorial to investigate their members that are on the EC Foundation Board – Dr. Jim Gettys, Bill Lesesne, Lee Logan, and Dr. John Hunt.

WHEN WILL IT STOP??????????

William Crenshaw They keep claiming that they are not interlopers and pirates hijacking the denomination. Their actions continue to contradict their words.

Rick Beard Where is Unity ARP?

Lynn Skidmore Rick, I think it’s in Lancaster.

Margaret McGill Grier There is one in Lancaster, but this is not it! The one in Lancaster is in Catawba Pres. I think this one is in Greenville area.

Ann Clarke Judd The denomination seems to be intent on self destruction, and taking Erskine down with it Attempts to heal the divide, find common vision, and move forward are continually thwarted, not by the alumni, but by the church and the administration. Donors, students, faculty, and staff need to see behaviors that are positive and collaborative in order to have confidence that Erskine has a future. Only the Synod leadership can correct this. There would have been no incentive to create the foundation if the church had acted with integrity and in a manner that inspired trust among all the stakeholders. That did not happen, and the behavior has not changed. The divide deepens….again.

Stephanie Richie <http://unityarp.podbean.com/about/>

Stephanie Richie <http://unityarp.weebly.com/>

Mary Elizabeth Todd Okay, I remember the preacher from a year ago- but Stephanie did you read that in the first link- it was the 4th paragraph before Christ was mentioned and it was in connection with brother’s and sisters in Christ and that is mentioned again in the 5th paragraph. In the 8th paragraph it is the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ that is mentioned- then down where it lists numbers like 1. 2. It is 3. that it says the righteousness od Jesus Christ. I know that the scriptures are very important, but should not be the basis of our faith be first which is Jesus Christ and then say we then worship Him thru the WOrd.

Carey Whitman In the same presbytery packet, the financial update contains the number of active members of each church in the presbytery. After a decade or more of church planting, Unity only has 50 members. He and his church are not doing any kingdom-advancing work.

Mary Elizabeth Todd In the second link- the Bible is mentioned before God(the trinity) , and Jesus is mentioned down the list. I am sorry- if I am way off track here because those men are dear good Christian men whom I am sure honor the Bible but I am also sure that they do not worship the Bible. They follow Christ and His teachings- I know a couple of them personally and finer men I have never met. The other two I am sure are equally fine from words I have heard from others- But a light sort went on in my head- I have been heading this way in the way I have been guided but had not had confirmation of it until I looked at those two links- Thank you Stephanie Richie for bringing up those links. I am going to ponder what I have read and let it sink in more.

The ARPC will soon be a wholly owned and renamed subsidiary of the PAC unless traditional ARPs stand up.

William Crenshaw The ARPC will soon be a wholly owned and renamed subsidiary of the PCA unless traditional ARPs stand up.

Mary Elizabeth Todd ‎Chris CaseyI can’t say anything- my church is very very small but we are slowly growing.

 

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  1. Daniel F. Wells says:

    I didn’t read much beyond Cathy Craig Neil’s article. But I cannot give much higher praise to Jason and Daniel. As one of the original editors of SAFE, I think we could have done a better job voicing some of our concerns, but Jason and Daniel do a better job than I ever have in voicing a vision and support for Erskine.

    Fortunately, I think a majority of the ARP Synod and the Due West community agree with their sentiments. The extreme right and the extreme left are no longer relevant, and a gospel way is being promoted! Praise God!

     
  2. Jason Nussbaum says:

    Mr. Wilson,

    Let the record show that bold type is not possible on Facebook, and thus the bold type is not mine, as you have stated above. These comments were posted on a closed site (non-public), and I do not authorize their reproduction. Please remove any and all comments which I have created and posted on the Alumni for Erskine page, as you do not have my permission to post them on your blog. Let the record also show that I do not support you or the actions you have taken in conjunction with the SAFE crowd to devastate Erskine. In my opinion, you are included in the FAR OUT group. Please remove all comments which you have copied, and you do not have my permission to reference my name on your site at any time in the future without my prior written approval.

    Respectfully,

    Jason Nussbaum

     
    • Dear Mr. Jason Nussbaum,

      Thank you for your comments.

      I’m surprised at your response. I thought your comments were very reasoned – even noble. Of course, you don’t agree with me. Your comments make that very clear. Nevertheless, in this heated world of the AFE and AFIE alums, your comments were “light” instead of “heat.”

      I would remind you that there is “no reasonable expectation of privacy on the Internet.” I believe you are aware of that. The AFIE chatter makes it very clear that you all were aware that others were watching. And so they were!

      I’m perplexed that you’re not proud of your words.

      Regards,

      Chuck Wilson
      ARPTalk

       
  3. James Curtis says:

    Daniel Prohaska writes that “EVERYONE” thinks Erskine will be dead in ten years, “tops”? Am I not included in the “EVERYONE” group? Who I am, then? Do I have something on my face? Why didn’t anyone tell me!?

     
  4. Eric Goodwin says:

    Chuck,

    I see that you have quoted me from a post on the AFE site on September 9th. You also linked to my profile in a move that – I hope – will bring more eyes to fan pictures of the Kennedy Towel Choir.

    With respect, you seem to have missed out on the sarcasm of my post. The members of the group to which I posted know my firm support for Dr. Norman and my opposition to their over-the-top attacks on him. In its context, my post was meant as satiric. Though perhaps I lack Jonathan Swift’s talent.

    I do, and have, support Dr. David Norman as President of Erskine College. In fact, my literary society (the Euphemians) will be presenting Dr. Norman on the steps of our Hall next month for an address on community.

    What I post is what I post, but I also post within a framework. As here, the same words can mean vastly different things depending on context. If you ever have a question about something I have posted, I would appreciate it (Christian brother to Christian brother) if you would ask me and I’ll be happy to explain.

    Eric

     
    • Dear Mr. Eric Goodwin,

      First of all, indeed, sarcasm is hard to do. I know! However, when I read your words, I didn’t miss it. You done good!

      We’re all aware of your support of Dr. Norman.

      The posting of the comments is simply a way of warehousing them.

      BTW, the linking is automatic. Good to know that it helps.

      Thank you for commenting again.

      Regards,

      Chuck Wilson
      ARPTalk

       
      • Eric Goodwin says:

        Chuck,

        My concern is that you place my words within the context of the “Far-out crowd” and intro them with “the venom and vituperation evident speak volumes.”

        Any reader is going to read my words as an attack on Dr. Norman. You have removed them from the context that suggested the sarcasm and placed them in a context that suggested the complete opposite.

        You did a fine job of warehousing the comment, but framed it in a misleading way (and isn’t this the definition of lying).

        Eric

         
        • Dear Mr. Eric Goodwin,

          We know who you are and where your heart is. Comments by Ms. Janis Cunningham are also listed in that very long list of comments I identified as “FAR OUT.” I don’t for a second think she is “FAR OUT.” In another issue of ARPTalk I think I referred to her as “noble lady.” The context and your comments identify you as not “FAR OUT.”

          I was being provocative and sarcastic. From the phone calls and comments that I have received, I think I just maybe succeeded.

          Thank you for making your position very clear.

          Regards,

          Chuck Wilson
          ARPTalk

           
  5. Sej Harman says:

    Commenters: Please post a legend to all the abbreviations for those who haven’t followed this from the beginning. This whole conundrum is fascinating, sad, unbelievable…and not unexpected, given the presumption by some that anyone has a corner on Truth and that one person/group could “know” an omniscient god’s mind.

     
  6. Daniel Stephens says:

    EC = “Erskine College”
    ETS = “Erskine Theological Seminary”
    ARPC = “Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church”
    BOT = “board of trustees,” the governing body of Erksine, elected by the General Synod of the ARP church.
    AFE = Alumni For Erskine [facebook group]
    AFIE = Alumni for an Independent Erskine [facebook group]
    TOS = “the other side.” Narrowly, this refers to certain ministers and students; broadly it refer to anyone who disagrees with the speaker.
    Synod = once a year gathering of ministers and elders in the ARP church; the highest court in the ARP church
    DW = “Due West,” the town in which Erskine is located
    FEC = “Faculty Executive Committee”

    Hope that helps.

     
  7. Jason Nussbaum says:

    I thought ministers were supposed to be men of integrity? Why don’t you start practicing the spiritual standard you have called Erskine’s leaders to attain? If the ARP church was truly wise, it would have filed a memorial against you and your cronies long ago. I am calling you to repent, as you stated you should in your previously posted letter. Are you man enough to live up to your own standards? One of these days you are going to be judged for your actions and you are going to be left in a pile of your own pathetic misery.

     
    • Dear Mr. Jason Nussbaum,

      Our phone conversation this morning didn’t go so well, did it? When you called me as “a**hole,” I shouldn’t have responded in kind. We both lost our tempers, didn’t we? I do repent and ask your forgiveness.

      Is there anything else for which you think I should repent?

      Regards,

      Chuck Wilson
      ARPTalk

       
    • James Curtis says:

      Mr. Nussbaum,

      It helps, when asking someone to repent of certain things, not to attack them or give an air of “holier than thou.” Otherwise, your post is nothing short of hypocritical, and thus null and void. Planks and specks, Mr. Nussbaum. Planks and specks.

      Respectfully,
      James Curtis

       
  8. Doug bowrn says:

    Interesting that you would remove a post that I made on one of your opinion prices yet you publish my comments without asking. Doesn’t make one think you are open to differing opinions.

     
    • Dear Mr. Doug Bowrn,

      It is well known that I despise anonymous posters. In your posting, you identified yourself as “DB.” Obviously, you were attempting to hide you identify. As you recall, you were attacking Mr. Daniel Wells about something. You need to deal with him face-to-face.

      Mr. Bowrn, you are a coward.

      I don’t countenance fools well; and you are a fool. You no longer have the privilege to use ARPTalk for comments. I have asked the administrator to put you on the “Black List.” You have just hoisted yourself on your own petard! If you don’t know what my last phrase means, you can find it in Shakespeare.

      Regards,

      Chuck Wilson
      ARPTalk

       
  9. Doug bowrn says:

    So nice of you to resort to name calling. I really am honored that such a short post could garner such a swift “punishment” of blacklisting me from commenting on your rants.

     
  10. Dear Mr. Doug Bowrn,

    Well, I see that you got through before the administrator could activate the Black List. Good for you!

    Good from me, too! You see, I forgot to thank you for crawling out the cesspool in which you hide so that the whole world can see who you are! Did you look up the Shakespeare reference?

    Regards,

    Chuck Wilson
    ARPTalk

     
  11. Doug bowrn says:

    Look up Shakespeare? Dont have to, you see I have a real Erskine education where we know all about literature, the Globe Theater, and all sorts of history. I would gladly throw myself on the grenade that you think I threw for my fellow alumni

     
    • Dear Mr. Doug Bowrn,

      Well, there must be a glitch in our system. You beat the Black List. The administrator is looking into the problem. Good for you!

      If you’re so brave as to throw yourself on a grenade for one of the BOIs, why did you hide behind “BD”?

      Have you been to war? Have you seen what a grenade does to a body? In your self- proclaimed learning, you have just trivialized the bravery of soldiers. You really are foolish and immature!

      Regards,

      Chuck Wilson
      ARPTalk

       
  12. Ralph Smith says:

    “inbreed buck toothed, rednecked, oh my…’ WOW. ARPs… cannot even read or write…. Mr. West must be the most pathetic individual in the ARP. Wow..Just WOW!!!!! The whole world should see what ARP ministers are dealing with…. a bunch of anti-intellectual, obnoxious, silly kids… WOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!

     
    • Anthony says:

      FWIW, I don’t believe Mr. West is ARP anymore… from what I gather he is now an esteemed member of a PC-USA congregation.

       
  13. Ralph Smith says:

    Dear Rev Wilson,

    DOES ANYONE TAKE JAY WEST FOR SERIOUS???

    This person could not lead a day care to poop at potty time! Period!.

     
  14. Dear Readers of ARPTalk,

    The “FAR OUT” crowd simply cannot help themselves. The amount of material available is more abundant than grass during a rainy summer in Florida. I feel like a mosquito in a nudist camp for very corpulent people. Where to begin?

    Below is a little exchange from last evening. I will make a few comments below the posts.

    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

    David B Pritt
    I have told a few people this quietly, but I suppose I shall say it openly.

    I feel that Erskine College’s only real viable path to survive is to seperate from the Denomiination and from the Seminary. Allow them to have their Medieval Schism, and allow the College to become fiscally and educationally competitive. At the present rate, She will bleed students out, enrollment will decline until someone shows up with papers and locks her doors. Sadly, there is NO recovery from this. What Erskine used to be will never be revisited. Thomas Wolfe wrote enough poems to remind us of this.

    The Students MUST organize a rally from within her walls right now, and follow the template of the early Americans breaking free from the Oppressive British Government, or even the time of the Reformation when the Protestants rebelled against the POWERBASE of the Roman Catholic CHURCH.

    The time is NOW. Either they will organize and take action, or they will prove Thomas Jefferson’s words to be true when he said in the Declaration of Independance:

    “….and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed ”

    Are we still more disposed to suffer, because not everybody can “Choose the Harder Right over the Easier Wrong” — And thats exactly what Jefferson was saying. To the Students. The College is yours now, and perhaps you have been placed there, for such a time as this. What will you do with this time?
    (To also be posted on EC’s FACEBOOK page)

    Mary Elizabeth Todd I bet you make Arptalk with that one.

    David B Pritt
    Well, he better contact me before hand before he attempts to “paint me” in any light. I disagree with him publically speaking for the ARP denomination. Its ironic that in the ARP, when we bring Churches in, they sign the Churches, and their… land over to the Denominations control. I am also in favor of the the same thing occuring now on the internet. Especially if the URL has anything ARP in it. Therefore only one editor at 1 Greenwood Str ( or if we hire more) wil agree to content approval, and also if something is said, we have a grievance process in the Synod. No more Devenger ARP posting scandalous pictures espousing personal opinions that do not reflect the whole denomination. So Yes across the board, Internet domains need to be brought under the ownership and editing control of the ARP denomination. (Chew on that one Charles). Don’t quote First Amendment legislation, I just used Church Polity and the apologesis for why we do what we do in the ARP church. That is the basis for my proposal

    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

    Let me make the following observations:

    • There is “no reasonable expectation of privacy on the Internet.” For all who post of FACEBOOK: you might want to read the statement regarding privacy. In other words, don’t post comments if you don’t want them seen.

    • Obviously, Mr. Pritt doesn’t realize it, but I have already made his suggestion regarding Erskine’s independence. There is, however, a difference in our plans: I don’t want that broken and money-hemorrhaging seminary. The brokenness of Erskine is not attributable to the ARP Church. Forty years ago Erskine had about 550 students; forty years later, Erskine has about 550 students. The ARP Church didn’t do that. For 40 years the ARP Church has allowed the “Old Erskine people” to run the place into the ground. Well, indeed, let’s give Erskine back to the “Old Erskine people” so that they can finish strangling the victim! We can erect a sign that reads: RIP Erskine!

    • I would remind Mr. Pritt that ARPTalk has about as much to do with the ARP Church as the EC Foundation has to do with Erskine College. The only difference: ARPTalk defends the name and theological standards of the ARP Church and the EC Foundation collects money in order to sue the ARP Church and, if they so choose, Erskine College.

    • FYI, I own the domain rights to “ARPTalk.” If anyone would like to purchase it from me, we can talk! Really! I have a price!

    • Mr. Pritt, are you an ARP? Do you know how the ARP Church works?

    • Mr. Pritt, you want to be free to speak; however, you want me muzzled? That ain’t fair! I can’t figure you BOIs out. There is only one of me; there are thousands of you BOIs. Thousands should be more than ONE, don’t you think? It should be no contest for you BOIs!

    • Mr. Pritt, you want me controlled by the ARP Church; however, you don’t want the ARP Church to control Erskine College and Seminary – an agency of the ARP Church. Did I get that correct? Did you notice a flaw in your “critical thinking?”

    • Mr. Pritt, I too am an Erskine alum. Don’t post anymore comments, your spelling embarrasses us! Don’t you know how to use a dictionary or “SpellCheck”?

    • This is personal. MET, it was nice to meet you and speak with you Thursday evening. With the noise level as high as it was, I didn’t get a chance to say this: thank you for your years of service in the care of children who are at risk. I commend you. Thank you!

    Regards,

    Chuck Wilson
    ARPTalk

     
    • There is Comparison, and there is Contrast. Generally it is not a good idea to mix the two principles together in the same sentence (e.g. “..a mosquito in a nudist camp for corpulent people” ).

      As to your first comment on the privacy issue, thats kind of an “old line” circa 2003. I also suppose that If the details of your “last situation at Oconee” starts appearing on a message thread, then will you feel violated, or will you resign yourself to the “there is no Privacy on the Internet”. It is just as if we are listening in to a conversation around the water cooler.

      As for Your next point– Yes, let Erskine go free from the Denomination. Let them attract Qualified, Valuable, and Coveted professors. I noticed that in the earlier thread above mine, point number to the charges against Mr Bill(and the others) defines Erskine as “…. and Evangelical Liberal Arts College”. When did this definition of the College occur? Erskine was a Private Liberal Arts College, Funded and Sponsored by the Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church, which aligns itself with some Evangelical denominations and organizations. But Erskine is an Educational institution, and according to Dr Norman, just this last week to the Alumnae in Anderson, SC, Erskine is not becoming a Bible College. Labeling it an Evangelical Liberal Arts School is a slippery slope, and one step closer to becoming a Bible College. It lends credence to the devaluing of the Diploma when placed on the scale of other Liberal Arts Colleges. The Current Schism that you are helping to foment and helping to rend apart in the denomination today, is rolling over into the College. To recapitulate, yes it is my opinion that Erskine College should become independant. Dr Crenshaw should return, and a whole lot of changes should occur. The Erskine that once was is past. There are solutions to the problems she faces today.

      ——-
      I would remind Mr. Pritt that ARPTalk has about as much to do with the ARP Church as the EC Foundation has to do with Erskine College. The only difference: ARPTalk defends the name and theological standards of the ARP Church and the EC Foundation collects money in order to sue the ARP Church and, if they so choose, Erskine College.
      ———-
      Slick move debate wise, trying to bring the EC Foundation into play. OK, since I really don’t know that much about the EC Foundations role ( and honestly I don’t. Sorry Mr Bill, I’ve been running around the globe for the last 25 years. It collects money.. ). Lets be real about this Charles. The ARP Church doesn’t need YOU, or YOUR WEBSITE to defend her name, or her theological standards. That is the role of the Church Visible, and the Pastors that we ordain… you remember that don’t you? Ordained as a Pastor of the Word and of the Sacraments? Annually Our Churches meet at Bonclarken to iron out any kinks in the system, and to address any issues. We have a magazine that is our official Publication.

      But Your website illustrates the very real problem that any Organization, Company, et al is facing today in this cultural age of the Internet and Social Media forums. While one does not keep up with the pace of the other, internally, the people who make up these Organizations, companies, groups, military organizations, suddenly start making their presence known in a very real way on the internet, in a very reckless, irresponsible manner. You say you are a preacher, yet after one month of reading you, all I read from you was mocking, jeering, snide remarks, caustic comments, the hollow sounds of a clanging gong. The very method you charged Dr Crenshaw with doing, you yourself do, but you wrapped yourself around the Christian flag and claimed it to be “authorized”. I found it to be repugnant.

      The ARP church is Dividing — and you seem to be right there, riding the divide. You just said defending her name and upholding her theological standards. (Ever look at some of the Pictures you use to illustrate your Post? Oh its Splashy. Its cute. But let me ask you this question, using “evangelical vernacular”. Just What would Jesus Do? I don’t think I would see him posting a Monopoly picture, or the Notepaddrawing of the door, with the scrawling bubble “you’re fired”).

      I don’t presently go to an ARP church now. But Ohh Yeah, I’d call myself an ARP. I think most of the people on here would recognize me as such, and recognize my father. Yes, I am familiar with the Polity of the ARP church ( Would I use a word like Polity if I didn’t? Give me a break Charles)

      ————————————
      • Mr. Pritt, you want me controlled by the ARP Church; however, you don’t want the ARP Church to control Erskine College and Seminary – an agency of the ARP Church. Did I get that correct?
      ———————————————

      NOT what I suggested. ( Open your earlids ). I propose that Erskine College be liberated and that Immediate Changes in the Adminstration, and Faculty begin ( as soon as Synod can approve this-) The Seminary should still be retained under control of the Synod.

      Per websites. Since All Churches and all Land come under ownership of the Denomination upon entrance, then all URL’s should likewise come under control of the ARP denomination. (Especially if they have the letters ARP in them.) I’m sorry Charles, but on this one, the Christian thing wouldn’t be to “hold the Denomination hostage” for a dollar amount.
      All Churches which have AnyTownARP.Org in them would come under control of the Editor of the ARP church, or he would be responsible if anything offensive went up.
      If a Pastor has a site where he has a Blog, or writes about butterflys, or frogs, etc.. he could have the editor check his site out, and be issued a “certificate of Safe site Registry” and a Number. It wouldnt stop any Pastor from having a Website. But it would allow the ARP denomination to have a lot more control of what is being said out there.

      I’m sure that the amount of Magazines being sold compared to unique hits on your website monthly would tell the tale as to why this change would be needed. The internet is so powerful, it reaches out so far. As you stated earlier, it is so Open Source, once it is out there, it cannot be taken back. Thus the Denomination has every right to control YOU, and what you post, especially since you consider yourself to be the self proclaimed Templar guarding the Doctrines of Election and Inerrancy. Let me see what else your’e complaining about. (i’m writing this on a notepad to copy and paste onto the reply screen)

      I don’t worry about using my F7 spell check function. Presently it’s 4:54 in the morning. I am not being graded for what I type. I am under Grace, and not under the Law. Lastly all things are permissible for me…. even a missspelled word or tooo

      Merci Beaucoup Charles

      In Him, I still am
      David Brainerd Pritt:.
      River-Rat-Doc

       
      • Dear Mr. David Pritt,

        See your post regarding tech help and my reply first. I didn’t see your comments until now. Glaucoma has taken most of my sight. I’m “legally blind” now.

        Mercy, child, you do go on, don’t you? I think I might have provoked you. Let me respond to your points.

        1. No one that I know is attempting to turn Erskine into a “Bible College.” I’m not attempting to do that. That is what you guys are saying. That’s the “booger” that you all have invented to frighten each other with.

        2. Well, you don’t like my message. Okay. You’re playing the old game of kill the messenger. However, let me make the question clear to you: WHERE HAVE I LIED?

        3. David, do you really mean what you write regarding a “Czar” of information? What’s in the water you’re drinking?

        BTW, you are misinformed on a goodly number of things; however, I will leave that to you to discover.

        One last thing: THANK YOU FOR THE UNIFORM THAT YOU WEAR!!

        Regards,

        Chuck Wilson
        ARPTalk

         
        • David Brainerd Pritt:. says:

          It is late (12:15), and I am just back from a Lodge meeting. I am at the end of a 48 hour stretch of no sleep. I have already written an email earlier to Todd Friel while at the 36 hour mark, (and that doesn’t count the pharmaceuticals on board). My father is well, he has a weak heart but still preaching. I cannot expose all that has happened internally within the siblings (publically) but it has affected him. I returned wounded, another is still over there. Thank you but, I don’t really need thanks. I just want my time done.

          I want to address one issue with lucidity, then I will sleep the sleep of sinners saved by grace.

          You asked where we are getting this idea that Erskine is being turned into a Bible College.? Ok, I am assuming you are asking that in seriousness. You speak as if you know me. I can’t remember you. Mea Culpa. My memory is gone in a lot of places. You speak highly of my father (as did a lot of people in the Denomination. More than once he prevailed upon them at Synod not to pursue a foolish path).

          My basis for bringing this charge, (not only I, but do you see that crowd behind me on the Internet?) can be found in key areas. I’ll start with the obvious things first. Others can add to this, because I am drifting.
          1) Demanding that Teachers sign a Statement of Faith which contains articles among it that are denominational splitters. TEACHERS in an EDUCATIONAL Institution that theoretically is free from “Religious Influence from the Denomination”, yet that is exactly what is occurring.

          Would that I could speak for my Father publically here. I don’t have an Internet POA

          2) Among the Charges leveled against Lesene, Gettys, Hunt, & Logan I noticed that Erskine was labeled as an Evangelical Liberal Arts school. Look THIS IS SERIOUS — Language means everything. Do we remember the era when the Church was fighting over the Substance of Christ (Fully God or Fully Man, or etc…) and years were spent in SCHISM dropping a letter which changed the meaning of one word (Yes I remember Dr Kuykendalls class and his dreaded red pen in my blue book). But he would say LANGUAGE MEANS EVERYTHING.

          So if you are going to let Dr Norman slip in the title Evangelical Liberal Arts School, and re-write books and manuals, changing the language, and when you make the Professors charged with teaching academic education sign a Theological Statement of Faith…..smacks of a obfuscated way of turning a Private Liberal Arts School into a Evangelical Bible Collge where you can teach them the latest in Emergent Church Theology or Orthodox Isolationism. (Two Extremes given for you to ponder).

          It’s Time for C3PO to shut down. I still need to authorize this. Others can add to it — I have an AWANA bible study I need to prepare for tomorrow, so I’ll be back when I have time for this .

          In Him, I still am
          David Brainerd Pritt:.
          “…why do people not seem to know that it was John Calvin who first penned the title Great Architect of the Universe…”

           
          • Dear Mr. David Pritt,

            Once again, thank you for your service to our country. Your response is standard fare for men like you. I have never thanked a warrior who didn’t respond: “I’m just doing my job!” Well, that doesn’t give me permission not to thank you. I’m old, and I remember a generation of brave warriors NOT thanked. That statement is not just about Viet Nam. Perhaps, if we get the chance to talk someday, I can unpack it for you.

            I’m sorry that you have been without sleep for so long. I don’t want to take advantage of a tired man. Like you, I do tend to be long; however, I will attempt to be brief; however, you have actually addressed not one or two points but a goodly number.

            1) You seem to ignore a rather obvious point. You begin with an incorrect premise. Erskine College and Seminary IS organically connected to the ARP Church. Erskine C&S is an agency of the ARP Church. As such, the ARP Church has “no say”? No say!?! Do you really mean that?

            2) Thank you for bringing up Bill Kuykendall and his emphasis on “LANUAGE MEANS EVERYTHING.” I knew Bill well. We called each other “friend” before you were born. Indeed, “language” in relationship to definition and context is all there is. So, with that established . . .

            3) What “denominational splinters?” The statement on evangelical Christianity is generic. It was meant to be generic. I voted in favor of the adoption of the ‘terrible’ statement. The problem is not with the statement; the problem is with those at Erskine who for the sake of a job crossed their fingers (for example, Dr. Crenshaw).

            4) There are no “charges” pending in Second Presbytery! NO CHARGES!

            5) You don’t know what a Bible College is. You haven’t defined the term. When you get around to looking up “Bible College,” you will realize that no one in the ARP Church is advocating for a “Bible College.” I’m not!

            6) Yes, I know something about church history. The difference between HISTORIC Christianity and all the “splinters” is an “i”. As you say, language means everything. Most times, the small thing is the most important thing.

            7) When Dr. Norman refers to Erskine as an “Evangelical Christian Liberal Arts College” he is quoting. He’s correct. He’s not an interloper that is bringing something new to the discussion.

            8) Erskine is not a “Private Liberal Arts College.” That is what you want. Erskine is an “Evangelical Christina Liberal Arts College. As an “agency” of the ARP Church, Erskine combines faithfulness to the Christian faith and rigorous academic endeavor. Well, at least, that’s what is written!

            9) You write: “the latest in Emergent Church Theology or Orthodox Isolationism”. Do you realize that I’m opposed to both?

            Indeed, I hope you have restful sleep. I suspect that your day will be long again tomorrow.

            Our chats didn’t begin on the best of terms, but I hope we can continue our talks. You have been blunt and courteous. That’s what I would expect from a good soldier. Thank you. I will show you the same.

            BTW, I love the quote from Calvin.

            My wife and I pray for the safe return of our brave warriors. I will add your bother’s name to the list.

            Regards,

            Chuck Wilson
            ARPTalk

             
  15. Doug bowrn says:

    Looks like you might have blacklisted me again my response last night to your flawed logic was

    My statement is probably nicer to a soldier than a petard was. Just because Shakespeare said is doesn’t make it less deadly. I know what a grenade and black powder will do. The mortality range of black powder is impressive. Looks like you need to do a little research before commenting.

     
    • James Curtis says:

      Being a soldier and philosophy fan myself, I’m having trouble finding that your statement is, indeed, “nicer” to us (soldiers) than Chuck’s, and that your statement has any logical argument in it whatsoever.

      Perhaps if you gave us a numbered form of your argument it would help. I will provide an example:

      1. If you hide your identity, you are scared of something.
      2. You have hid your identity
      Ergo, 3. You are scared of something!

      (That’s the Modus Ponens argument form if you care to look it up.)

      Hope that helps!

      James Curtis

       
      • Bowrn,

        I do not countenance fools well, and you are not only a fool but an imbecile and a coward.

        You asked me to do some “research.” I did. As “BD” is a false identity, “Doug Bowrn” is also a false identity. You have not crawled up out of that cesspool of which I spoke. You are still swimming on the bottom of that slime hold with the filth and maggots and hiding your identify!

        Once again, you have hoisted yourself on your own petard. Don’t bother to speak of how you would throw yourself on a grenade for one of your friends. The only thing that you would throw yourself on is a marshmallow and that to lick it off the floor like a dog.

        Boy, go home to your mama. She is waiting up to change your diaper, wipe your nose, give you a bottle, and tuck you in for the night.

        Congratulations! You have made yourself a pest. However, we know what you’re doing to defeat our security. We have got you now. You have made it bit difficult for those who want to post legitimate comments; however, it will be a long time before you get to do this again. All you have done is slow the approval system down some.

        I’m going to leave your comments posted. I want the whole world to see just how little, immature, and stupid you FAR OUT BOIs are!

        Wilson
        ARPTalk

         
        • Patricia Ridgeway says:

          My goodness, Wilson.
          You are either two years old or in severe need of additional meds. You must have more important things to do with your time than waste everyone else’s with your juvenille barbs intended to intimidate “Bowrn”. Be assured, he is not swayed by your feeble and immature attempt to make him look foolish. To the contrary; it is you who appears foolish.
          I apparently need to point out to you that the “r” on the keyboard is next to the “e” and that “Bowen” identifying himself as “Bowrn” was nothing more than a typo. You are (no doubt) infallible and have never made a mistake.
          I might suggest that you attempt anonimity. It would serve you well. Meanwhile, grow up.

           
          • James says:

            Are you saying, Mrs. Ridgeway, that someone other than Dr. Crenshaw is infallible and inerrant?!

            Heresy, I say!

             
            • Dear Ms. Patricia Ridgeway,

              Thank you for your comments. It would have been nice if your had been civil enough to introduce yourself. Nevertheless, your comments are posted, and may I make a number of observations?

              1. If you don’t want me wasting your time, don’t read ARPTalk. Did someone make you read ARPTalk?

              2. Do you know “Bowrn”? Is “Bowen” his real name? Are you his girlfriend or sister or wife? You must be close to him! Thank you, you have made it possible for me to do some research. BTW, “Bowrn” is the way the name appears on his comments. Have you heard of “cut and paste”? That’s what I did.

              3. I have always been a poor speller. I hate misspellings! Now that I’m “legally blind,” I really do have difficulty with what I write. I have to work very hard to get the words correctly spelled. BTW, “anonimity” is spelled “anonymity.” Yes, it’s one of those hard words. And did you know that there is a “SpellCheck” for the “Submit Comment” section of ARPTalk?

              4. No, I’m not “infallible,” and it looks as thought that one who has good vision isn’t infallible too!

              Regards,

              Chuck Wilson
              ARPTalk

               
              • Patricia Ridgeway says:

                Dear Chuck,

                Based on your most recent correspondence with Mr. Bowen, it seems that civility is a trait that has escaped you. Therefore, I saw no need for introduction. I found it interesting that you assumed I was a sister, girlfriend, wife to Mr. Bowen. Not that it’s any of your business, but I am none of these. Nor am I his mother who waits with baited breath to change his diaper as you so eloquently suggested.

                Mr. Bowen is a fine, principled, well educated, open-minded, kind and compassionate person. He stands up for causes that he believes in strongly. I am a better person for knowing him. Such a shame that you will never have that opportunity.

                I have always believed that one can learn much from those who hold viewpoints different from their own. One becomes stagnant if they are close-minded. They miss the opportunity to broaden their horizons and to challenge/reaffirm/share their beliefs. Perhaps you are so steadfast in your opinions that you are quick to dismiss those who do not share them. Sad, really.

                You are quick to make assumptions. Perhaps my vision is failing as well.
                Oh- and have fun with your little “research”. I wonder what it is you’re hoping to find?

                Regards,

                Patricia Ridgeway

                p.s.I am so proud of you for knowing how to cut and paste! Perhaps there’s hope for you yet.

                 
                • Dear Ms. Patricia Ridgeway,

                  LOL!!!

                  Thanks for “outing” “DB” and “Doug Bowrn.” I wonder why Doug wouldn’t use his real name. Indeed, what a fine and outstanding man he is!

                  Oop. You have just be hoisted on your own petard!

                  Once again, LOL!!

                  Regards,

                  Chuck Wilson
                  ARPTalk

                   
                • Dear Mr. Patricia Ridgeway,

                  I thought I would give you an update on my “research” regarding the “fine, principled, well educated, open-minded, kind and compassionate” Mr. Doug Bowen, aka, “DB” and “Doug Bowrn.” The twit continues attempting to post his drool on ARPTalk and we continue to block him; however, when I contacted him via e-mail through a mutual friend and let him know to contact me by e-mail so that we could talk, well, how shall I say it, he has continued to hide. Pity!!!!

                  BTW, let me help you with something. The expression is “bated breath” not “baited breath.” It’s a common mistake and I’m sure that Bill didn’t mention it when he was teaching you “critical thinking.” Too small of a thing, don’t you know?

                  “Bate” to hold one’s breath and “bait” to put a worm on a hook (and, yes, I know my definitions are not really technical, but they will do). I’m sure Mr. Bowen’s mama didn’t bait his hook when he went fishing in the creed. Well, on second thought, perhaps she did!

                  Don’t make yourself a stranger!

                  Regards,

                  Chuck Wilson
                  ARPTalk

                   
        • Suo Mynona says:

          Dr. Wilson:
          Allow me to quote from your own ‘About Comments’ page on this site: “Comments, however, cannot be limited to harsh language and name calling. […]We have a right to call on righteous anger to bring sin to light but we do not have the right to lash out in angry vindictiveness, common belittling, or “conduct unbecoming” of someone claiming Christ’s grace.”

          Please re-read the above comment you made to Doug Bowen, and decide whether you, perhaps, should follow your own rules when posting. Detesting anonymity is, in my opinion, simply a way for you to keep from having to listen to those who are, in fact, afraid of the kind of belittling and bullying you show here. Instead of responding to any valid points, you allow yourself to throw the baby out with the bathwater and refuse to address the comment at all (except to belittle the commenter). “Conduct unbecoming”, indeed.

          And for James Curtis: The Modus Ponens argument is often used incorrectly in arguments. In fact, it is used incorrectly in your own argument. When you assert that (1) if you hide your identity, you are scared of something, you provide no proof that the assertion is true. There are plenty of reasons to hide identity that do not fall under the category of ‘scared of something.’ A single example to the contrary, e.g. “I hid my identity because I didn’t feel like myself that day,” renders your entire argument invalid. Additionally, the assertion is too vague to be of any use. ‘you are scared of something’ doesn’t mean that the statements presented in the original submission are invalid. Perhaps the submitter is scared of identity theft. Does that have anything to do with whether his statements should be taken seriously or not? I would argue that it does not.

          Elsewhere in this thread (in a response to David Pritt), you referred to yourself as ‘the messenger.’ Are you willing to tell us who your ‘message’ is coming from?

           
          • Daniel Stephens says:

            The argument James Curtis constructed is logically valid. The conclusion follows from the premises. This does not mean the argument is sound (valid + all premises true).

            Counter examples to individual premises don’t show an argument to be invalid, they show it to be unsound.

             
          • James Curtis says:

            Mr. (Mrs.?) Mynona,

            I think Daniel defended my point well enough. You clearly took a little satire too far. I didn’t use the form incorrectly simply because the argument was unsound. I was providing a valid argument for for him to use.

            You are also missing the entire point of my post! “DB” has yet to inform me of any “logical argument” he is trying to make. Try to stay on topic instead of attacking my satire!

            Now that he’s blacklisted, he’s more than welcome to email me at jcurtis@erskine.edu; if you’re in Due West, DB, let’s meet in person!

            Respectfully
            James Curtis

             
          • Dear Mr./Ms. Suo Mynona,

            I see that this is your first time to visit on ARPTalk. Thank you for your comments.

            You have me at a disadvantage. You know who I am. I have no idea who you are. Since ARPTalk is read in more than 50 countries, I’m curious about you. From your name, I don’t think you are from the Upstate of South Carolina. I’m not sure whether you’re male or female. One of the unspoken rules on ARPTalk is that we introduce ourselves. Usually, I know the people with whom I’m chatting. If you decide to reply, would you tell us something about yourself? Now, let me respond to your comments.

            1. I pay an administrator to run ARPTalk. Thank you, but your help is not needed unless you’re willing to give me a better price for the service.

            2. I ain’t nice! Usually the self-absorbed and self-pronounced “entitled” to something that has never been theirs and self-proclaimed “well educated critical thinking” people I respond to are far less nice than I am. And, in only a couple of incidences, I don’t usually lash out in anger! Mock, ridicule, goad, jeer, provoke, and disdain? Yes! Yes! No, I don’t take many of them seriously! (Oh, my indignation, if you want to see it, is easily seen in some of the issues of ARPTalk; however, the comments are usually for play.) BTW, Mr. Bowen wasn’t worried about identify theft or being bullied. He ain’t that frail! (Also, you are not aware of the games that were being played in the game of that story – even I wasn’t at first.) If I remember correctly, the phone call where I was called an “a**hole” and threatened with a law suit came from his friend whose cause he took up. In truth, as I found out, he wasn’t worried about his friend; he had another agenda that didn’t involve me but used me. Be award, Mr. Bowen isn’t the least bit afraid of me. He continues to file post after post that the administrator deletes. He’s a pest.

            3. You seem to be worried about identify issues. Let me give you some advice. Don’t wade in the waters of the Internet!

            4. Forgive my blunt manner! Your arguments are silly! Try again. I’m old! I’m not going to play your games. Find someone else! And so that you understand clearly, I’m not angry – no anger at all. “Blunt” is the world. “Unimpressed” is also a word. You don’t have to come here!

            5. You want to know about “messenger?” Okay!! In my opinion that’s a snide remark that means “You think you are speaking from and for God!” Well, maybe I do. However, in this context, it means: I’m the sick and evil man (and the phrase that was used by another caller last Saturday was “sick s**-of-a-b****”) who rolled the Due West log over so that all the bugs and worms and crawly things could be seen. If you don’t get that, the word is “whistleblower.” BTW, I don’t particularly care if people call me names. Actually, I find it amusing. I do ask others to refrain from doing it with each other. Let me be the target of abuse. I have a very thick skin!

            Once again, thank you for your remarks. I’m not angry with you. I’m not trying to be mean to you. I sincerely hope that you will come back and chat with me. I’m intrigued by you. And that’s a complement from the “sick . . .” .

            Regards,

            Chuck Wilson
            ARPTalk

             
            • Suo Mynona says:

              I am, in fact, from South Carolina. I am an alumnus of Erskine, actually. And I am a male. I’m not sure more than that is important.

              I’m not sure what your administrator comment refers to. If you think I was pointing out a flaw in your website, I was not. I was pointing out that your main form of response to what appear to be honestly curious comments, from what I read on the site, is to belittle those who comment. Which is against your own comment policy. Of course, it’s your website, and you can make the rules. But to not follow your own rules is hypocritical. Such hypocrisy does not foster an attitude of respect from those with whom you are seeking to have dialogue. But perhaps you are not seeking dialogue or respect, only a soapbox of your own. I don’t know you well enough to answer that myself. But a soapbox without respect, well, we see those on street corners every day.

              I’m certainly not attempting to defend Mr. Bowen. He was but one example of the types of responses I’ve read throughout your web site. I’m sure, although I don’t know the gentleman, that he can take care of himself just as well as you can. I don’t have a dog in this fight, so to speak.

              I find your responses confusing. In one breath you said “Try again” and “I’m not going to play your games. Find someone else!” Which is it? You also said you are unimpressed, and then turned around and said you are intrigued, which you considered a compliment. Which is it? Perhaps I should respond in a similar fashion as you, “Aww, you sweet little thing. Bless your heart. Please come back when you’ve made up your mind about what you want to say.” Apparently, you consider such phrasing ‘blunt’ and not ‘belittling.’ I’m learning so much about your own unique language and definitions today!

              Finally, you make assumptions. You said you are ‘simply the messenger.’ I asked, genuinely curious, from whom the message you deliver comes. I was not making a snide remark. You do know what happens when you make assumptions, don’t you? I’m sure with all the comments about how old you are and how many degrees you have, you’ve heard that one before. (That was, in fact, a snide remark) Now your response is that you are not, in fact, a messenger, but a whistleblower. The ‘kicker of logs.’ Are you a messenger, with someone else pulling your strings? Or are you an instigator on a righteous mission? I do suggest you check your wrists and ankles very carefully these days. There are some extremely fine but strong threads available to those who would control us — almost invisible, as it were.

              But all of this rhetoric is tired. You said yourself in your response to me that you don’t really take the comments seriously. I don’t see any reason to continue a conversation that isn’t taken seriously. I will allow you to have the final word in this exchange, in whatever form it takes. My energy is better spent working WITH people to make appropriate change, rather than AGAINST them. You, sir, are nothing but an energy suck for all of those who engage you. I imagine the look of glee on your face when you wake every morning, wondering what fresh meat awaits you in your inbox today. And the look of satisfaction when you think you’ve bettered those who attempt to engage you by calling them names and banning them. I think you live to be the underdog, fighting with your small group against the ‘establishment.’ Note that there are 2 times in a cycle when a small group exists. First, when it appears from within the establishment, helping the movement grow to a tipping point. Then, after the movement has tipped and become the new establishment, a small group remains, holding to outdated ideas and trying to hold back the inevitable change. I believe you to be among the holdouts, not the righteous grassroots of a movement.

              I wish you health, wisdom, and clarity. Good day, sir.

               
              • James Curtis says:

                So, why did you come at all? You didn’t progress the discussion in the slightest, nor have said anything to Dr. Wilson that someone else hasn’t.

                What was your purpose for coming here at all? To show off?

                Respectfully,
                James Curtis

                 
              • Dear Mr. Suo Mynona,

                I am going to be brief. Ditto Mr. Jim Curtis’ comments. I have nothing to add.

                Regards,

                Chuck Wilson
                ARPTalk

                 
  16. Lonnie Johnson says:

    Mr. Wilson,

    As an seldom reader of your blog, I am very interested in some of the comments that are made on your site. I am a non-denominational Christian with ties to South Carolina and Erskine College. My wife is a graduate of Erskine College and attended events at the seminary. If you do not mind, would you clarify some of the comments listed below for my edification?

    1. Who is David Norman? What is his history? Where did he come from?

    2. What is the current status of the relationship between the ARP and Erskine?

    3. Where does the ARP stand in relation to other presbyterian denominations theologically?

    4. Lastly, could you provide me with your own history? I am terribly interested in why you are so vocal against the people of Erskine and why so many seem to dislike you?

    Lonnie

     
  17. Reiggin says:

    Did Jay West really threaten to break into hearsay to damage the reputation of another? Can anyone else smell the hypocrisy?

     
  18. Charles, Its not that hard to embed Site Trackers, IP Trackers, which will show you unique hits, IPP addresses, type of systems used, which ISP , which gateway, which subnet, etc…. just place the Code in your page. Then go back and do the tracing. Sure it takes time, but its a whole lot more professional than this last post.

    Reflect your “Metanoia” more. We all need to work on it from time to time.

     
    • Dear Mr. David Brainerd Pritt,

      Good to hear from you David. The last time we saw each other and talked was when you were about twelve. At the time, thought you were speaking some to me, you were far more interested in my daughter who was with me and the same age as you were.

      Thanks for the advice regarding “Trolls.” My administrator has got it worked out. Bowrn has tried again; we got him.

      How is your dad? I haven’t seen him in a number of years now. The last I heard he had some health issue. I hope he is doing well.

      I’ll never forget the time your dad showed up at Bonclarken for Synod on that big bike of his. I don’t think the old people at Bonclarken have ever gotten over that! It was wonderful!

      Regards,

      Chuck Wilson
      ARPTalk

       
  19. Michael Lake says:

    While I think it’s bad form to hot link my Facebook Profile, I will agree that nothing is ever said in anonymity. Legal? Yup. Bad Form? Absolutely.

    That said, I stand by my comment that Dr. Norman is younger with less life experience…HOWEVER I have been a long time close friend of one of his supporters, and while I am confused/concerned about some of the goings on, I will concede that much of it surrounds personnel actions, that are, by their nature, private.

    I will say that there appears to be little communication to the concerned alumni, and a feeling of Us vs Them is pervasive. Somewhere, along the line, communication is failing/breaking down/wholly non-existant. I don’t live in that area of South Carolina any more, so maybe the communication is better at the local level.

    Call it my suspicious nature but a lot of this just doesn’t pass the smell test.

    I will say that I remain outraged at the Bill Lesane, Jim Gettys issue. From an outsider Alumni (non ARP) it just doesn’t make any sense to me as I would never in my wildest DREAMS see either of these men doing ANYTHING to harm Erskine College.

    My .02, take it for what it’s worth.

     
    • Daniel Stephens says:

      If it makes you feel any better, I’m usually categorized with the ‘them’ and there is little to no communication to me either.

      From my understanding of the discipline issue (and I admit that my understanding can be mistaken), I don’t think it has anything to do with Erskine College or the men harming it. The issue is that these men are elders in the ARP church and they have sworn to promote the peace and purity of the church. It is argued that they have violated their vows by knowingly and willingly organizing an avenue for the ARP church to be sued and stating that they would gladly help any further lawsuit. I think the questions that will be asked are:
      1. did these men violate their vows?
      2. did these men violate 1 Cor. 6:1-8?
      3. If the answer is yes to either of the above, does that constitute church discipline?

       
  20. Dear Mr. Lonnie Johnson,

    Thank you for your comments. Thank you for introducing yourself. Yes, I will try to answer your questions.

    1. “Who is David Norman? What is his history? Where did he come from?”

    David Norman is President of Erskine College and Seminary. He has a PCA background. He has a PhD from the University of Edinburgh, Scotland.

    2. “What is the current status of the relationship between the ARP and Erskine?”

    Erskine is an “agency” of the ARP Church.

    3. “Where does the ARP stand in relation to other presbyterian denominations theologically?”

    Conservative both theologically and socially and, on paper at least, confessional.

    4. “Lastly, could you provide me with your own history? I am terribly interested in why you are so vocal against the people of Erskine and why so many seem to dislike you?”

    I have been an ARP for 40 years. I am a retired ARP minister. I am an Erskine Seminary alum. I am a former member of the Erskine Board of Trustees. I am a faithful ARP minister who takes his ordination vow seriously.

    Thank you for asking your questions.

    Regards,

    Chuck Wilson
    ARPTalk

     
  21. Mary Haynes says:

    Thankfully Erskine has done something about this professor! Many people may argue that he helped students think critically. That may be the case with some students but, what about the students he verbally abused for not thinking like him? Dr. Crenshaw had a habit of singling out students who did not share his beliefs and harassed their intelligence over email and in class(in front of the class). There are a few students who share my same experience! So, I look at Dr. Crenshaw’s suspension as Erskine preserving free thought rather than stiffling it. Erskine has gotten rid of a bully!

     
    • Dear Ms. Mary Haynes,

      Thank you for your post and willingness to speak out. I want you to know that there are many alums like you. I have received much encouragement from alums who have had the same experience that you had with Dr. Crenshaw. Usually, they write something like this: “I’m in support of you. Keep it up. You are our voice. However, I’m afraid to say or write anything in public. I don’t want to deal with all the “hate” e-mails, letters, and phone calls.”

      Mary, you are a brave lady!! This past Saturday was an interesting day for me. In phone calls, I was threatened to be sued, called an “a**hole” and a “sick s**-o*-b***” by irate alums. Well, just another day! I’m so sorry for all the garbage that is going to come your way for telling the truth. Just another day in the FAR OUT world of the crazy BOIs!

      Bless you, NOBLE lady! Perhaps your courage and strength will give boldness to others.

      There is one other thing I need to say to you: As an ARP minister, I apologize that the ARP Church allowed this to happen to you. Please, FORGIVE US!!! Please forgive me for it was on my watch!

      Regards,

      Chuck Wilson
      ARPTalk

       
    • Mary — I too had Professors at Erskine who often times used methods that felt ( from my limited perspective) as if they were “bullying” me ( Boy I hate that word as it has become the “Le mot du jour”).

      I bet you hated that movie “Dead Poets Society”, or else you missed the whole point entirely.

      These professors, are not there to just get these students to repeat information handed out in textbooks, lectures, and through research. They also have a responsibility to challenge these students to “GROW UP” and to “LEARN HOW” to “THINK” for “THEMSELVES” , not just accept what they have been told, or accept what is the Status Quo.

      As this young lad grows up, he will look back and realize (perhaps begrudgingly) that Dr Crenshaw played a critical role in that area.

      I cited Dead Poets Society, because the plot of the movie centers around a Prep School Professor who ultimately is suspended ( Why is it always the English Teachers?) for teaching ‘dangerous methods’ to the Student”

      “oh Captain My Captain!”

      (ironically– even though that Quote points to the Movie, and makes for an apropos ending.. it also illustrates what happened to Dr Crenshaw. The poem was written by What Whitman about Pres Lincoln after the Assasination of Lincoln )

      Post Script: I never had the pleasure of sitting in Dr Crenshaws class. I was bullied by Dominatrix Little. Now I look back and fondly remember her, and miss her.

       
  22. Dear David Pritt,

    I’m sure that Ms. Haynes is capable of speaking for herself if she chooses; however, I have some hypothetical questions for you.

    1: What would you do if a professor angrily pounded on your desk with his fist?
    2: What would you do if a professor would jeeringly call you “Stupid” in class?
    3: What would you do if a professor told you in class that you could not speak to him directly but only through an avatar?
    4: What would you do if a professor told you to go to hell in public?
    5: What would you do if a professor stood inches from you and shook his finger in your face?
    6: What would you do if a professor mocked (not challenged) your belief system in an attempt to humiliate you?
    7: What would you do if you’re paying 30K to have these things done to you?
    8: What would you do if you were convinced to attend this school because it was “Christ Centered” with “knowledge joined with morals?”

    Do you not realize that this sort of behavior in a professor isn’t allowed at Clemson University? This isn’t “Dead Poets’ Society” – make believe!

    Just hypothetically speaking!

    Regards,

    Chuck Wilson
    ARPTalk

     
    • Some of those methods did indeed occur to me, from different Proffessors. #6 from “Rube the Cube” as I called her. I merely counseled with Dr Kuykendall during my usual discipleship time, or with my buddy Jay Hering who also discipled me as he had time in between classes. Seems to me that Dr Engler could be very “Physical” and use ‘un-orthodox” methods in his classes. I remember Domanatrix Littles finger waggling inches from my nose in Moffett Dining Facility ( I shall refrain from what I had done).

      I think I was called things worse than Stupid by Faculty members more esteemed. Looking back, I probably was deserving of that criticism, and probably needed that “course correction”.

      As for #8, I chose Erskine over Columbia Bible College in 87, because the Diploma would have been worth more in the Corporate world, than a Diploma branded “Bible College” or “Evangelical”. Likewise, even if I wanted to go into the Missions field upon graduation, some Countries would be opposed to granting me a work visa if they saw my Educational Credentials. I point to Columbia Bible College Changing their name to Columbia International as a case in point ( even though they prepare Students largely for Missions Vocations). I wanted a Quality Education– the “Christ Centered” meant to me that it was OK to practice my faith openly and creatively. But I wanted a College where it reflected students of all denominations, saved and unsaved, I wanted Teachers who would teach me Creationism and Evolutionism ( I learned this by my 2nd year, it was Dr Kuykendall and my Dad who helped me see that I needed to learn all views before I could develop my own).

      Even in the Military, those tactics were used on me (Which is not a Surprise I suppose in the mid 80’s. Today, they cannot be used). But yes I was exposed to a lot of what you listed on the list at Erskine.

      Did the Student choose to go to the Dean of Students ( That would be Bill Lesesne right?) and have him sit down and act as an Internmediary while the Student voiced his concern over the incident, and then listen to the Professor explain to the Dean of Students why he chose to do so? Did the Student have a similiar meeting with the Professor and the President? What about going to his Guidance Counselor, and voicing his concerns, and perhaps asking for a transfer to another English teachers class? What attempts were made? All I am hearing is one side of the story. All I am seeing is one side of the Coin. As in everything.. there is

      — Your version of the truth
      –Their version of the truth
      — and then there is the real truth.

      Based on the scant information I have heard, and read, and it has been discussed “ad nauseum” , it sounds as if the Student was a “Twink” who had no back bone. Upon having someone ripple his perfect little world, he went crying to Mommy, she went and complained to the School.

      So, before I comment further, I really do want to know more information from the other parties involved. I wold also like YOU Mr Charles to extend an Olive branch to Dr Crenshaw to defend his Good name on here, especially, and particularly, in this case.

      Last item: You said earlier that there were no Charges pending in 2nd Presbytery. I was emailed not 5 hours ago that indeed there were charges pending (perhaps key word is “Pending”.) UNITY ARP has sent a Memo to 2nd Presby with the Same request for an Investigation. Now, I say this, because just 10 hours ago you were emphatic that there were no Charges, and it was written as if there would be none.

      ok, I am mixing items here. I really wish other individuslas would contribute to this, as I would like more information.

       
      • Dear Mr. David Pritt,

        Thank you for your comments. I have been waiting for someone to say the things you have said. Here is my response.

        1. Thank you for the information that you have given. I can’t believe you wrote what you wrote. What an indictment of the Erskine administration and faculty! The lack of academic professionalism that you witness to and that has obviously existed at Erskine for years is astounding. Thank you for clearly affirming what I have been saying. The sort of activities you seem to treat as “sweet memories” are not tolerated at Clemson University. I sent your comments to two Clemson University professors who are my friends. They were thunderstruck at your words. Those activities would get a professor “fired” immediately. You have clearly demonstrated in spades the failures and incompetence of the “Old Erskine” cabal of friends and relatives who made ineptitude and uselessness a career. Well, let me finish!

        2. Read what I wrote. I didn’t ask you why you choose Erskine. Instead, I was dealing with Ms. Haynes comments by posting hypothetical questions.

        3. Forgive me for pointing out the obvious, but Erskine is not the military. What is appropriate for the military is NOT appropriate for a Christian college. Indeed, I do not advocate for Erskine to be a Bible College or a Military College. Well, on second thought, I do like the military part!

        4. Forgive me again for pointing out the obvious, but we’re not discussing creationism and evolution.

        5. The student is not a “Twink.” The student is not a “he.” The student is a “she.” The student’s name is “Mary Haynes.” Didn’t you see her name? You addressed her by name in an above post.

        6. Obviously you were a rambunctious lad at Erskine. That is irrelevant to our discussion.

        7. You write that you need more information and that you are speaking from ignorance. No offense, but don’t jump into a pool unless you know how deep the water is. You’re still rambunctious! (-:

        8. Read some of the comments on prior issue of ARPTalk. More than once, I have asked Dr. Crenshaw to come over to ARPTalk and chat with me. The invitation is still open.

        9. I have the Presbytery packet in front of me. Admittedly, I am “legally blind” and I often miss what is in front of me; however, there are NO “charges” on the agenda. There is a memorial/call for an “investigation” from three Sessions; however, that’s a far cry from “charges.” Once again, language means everything! I think we’re agreed on that. BTW, if you (or, for that matter, anyone else) would like see a copy of the Presbytery agenda, I’ll e-mail you a copy if you will e-mail me at wilson6114@bellsouth.net. It ain’t no secret!

        One more thing: I’m disappointed in your comments. You have avoided or did not understand what I wrote.

        Regards,

        Chuck Wilson
        ARPTalk

         
        • I am 8 hours out from teaching at AWANA. ( minus having to run a oung man to a Recruiters office and other errands)

          I don’t care what the Clemson Professors said. Perhaps I missed That it was Mary who had those things that happened to her. Did she do the things that “I” suggested at the end? Did she have a face to face with the Professor? Did she then elevate it to have an arbitrator sit down with her and the professor (usually Dean of Students?) Did she go to her Guidance Counselor?) I want to know these facts.

          All I know is that My life was changed dynamically — as a direct result of having intereacted with the Professors, the faculty, the admininistration, and everyone who poured themselves into me “in their own unique way”.

          Our culture has grown soft, and too tolerant, and too self absorbed. Again, more people who have direct knowledge of this event probably need to post on this site, on this thread.

          I am against any ARP bringing up any “Investigation” into those men at Erskine. Time is going to fail me listing how they have proved themselves time after time, and everyone who has walked through her doors knows they are innocent. The end result is they will be found innocent, but that their names will have a nice “Skubalon” smear on them. How lovely.

          Lastly, it is off topic. But I have been praying over this and seeking the Lord in this matter. On the issue of “sueing a fellow Christian in Civil Court”. I can certainly see that on a microcosmic level at the local church level. It would serve no purpose. But what about when a Christian is dealing on a Macrocosmic level, a larger level– with an entity that perhaps has already violated moral laws for their own personal gain? Then I don’t think the Lord is going to hold that Christian accountable for seeking the civil courts to act as an Intercessor for him on this matter. Likewise, the larger entity who had originally re-nigged on their original promise to him, shouldn’t say to him: “hey you’re a Christian, you can’t take us to Court and sue us, thats against scripture”.

          I may yet email off for that report later. I now have to rerturn to preparing for this Bible Study for the Kids.

          I’m sorry I disappoiint, yes I am still rambunctious like Peter, like Jacob, like David of old. But I find comfort in the fact that Christ is the Author and Perfector ( or Finisher) of my faith.

          In Him, I still am
          dbp

           
          • Dear Mr. David Pritt,

            Thank you for your comments. Before I get to my comments, I have a question. You brought up the value of a degree from Erskine over a degree from Columbia International University. How was it that a degree from Erskine was valuable than a degree from Columbia Internal University in getting into the Army? Now, let me get to my responses to you.

            1. Don’t you realize that when you write “I don’t care what the Clemson Professors said” that you’re totally missing the point I was making? There are protocols that have been both ignored and broken at Erskine. If you do in the Army what you’re advocating for Erskine, you will be gone quickly and maybe even in a military jail.

            2. Do I need to remind you that the problem is not Mary? You’re attempting to turn the focus on the victim – the victim for heaven’s sake!

            3. Once again, do I need to remind you that this discussion is not about how your life was changed?

            4. David, I don’t mean to be unkind to you (to be sure, I like and respect you), but you’re coming across as the “self-absorbed” one. Please, re-read what you have written – “me”, “I”, “my”.

            5. You write: “Again, more people who have direct knowledge of this event probably need to post on this site, on this thread.” I don’t think they will. They don’t want the light on what has taken place at “Old Erskine.”

            6. What you think a Presbytery should and should not do is irrelevant. BTW, this issue has nothing to do with Erskine. These men are not employees of Erskine; however, they are members of Second Presbytery. In point of fact, have you even read the “Home Page” of the EC Foundation? They may be the one who are planning legal proceeding against both the ARP Church and Erskine!

            7. A position of ignorance (that is, not being informed) is not a good starting place in a debate. It’s simply emoting. Haven’t we had enough hand-wringing emoting?

            8. I don’t think you have a handle on the theological and ecclesiastical implications involved in matters of the church and civil proceeding.

            9. I too am still “rambunctious”; however, my disappointment was because of your avoidance of the points I brought up – not your rambunctiousness.

            I hope you have an enjoyable time with the kids you teach. I suspect you get on well with them.

            Regards,

            Chuck Wilson
            ARPTalk

             
  23. Holly Lesesne Kennerly says:

    Are you coming to Homecoming this year? I would LOVE to talk to you!

     
    • Dear Ms. Holly Lesesne Kennerly,

      If your post isn’t a threat, I sure got the impression it was. You didn’t mean to threaten me, did you? Didn’t your mama raise you better?

      Regards,

      Chuck Wilson
      ARPTalk

       
      • Holly Lesesne Kennerly says:

        My, aren’t we paranoid! You are a piece of work Mr.Wilson.
        Since you decided to bring my mother into it…she taught me to face issues in my life head on. I would rather talk with you than send messages to you on your blog that you are free to twist & turn and take out of context to suit your agenda.

         
        • Dear Ms. Holly Lesesne Kennerly,

          I live about an hour from you at 204 Stonebrook, Drive, Seneca. If you have a hankering to speak with me, the welcome mat is out, the light is on, the door is open, the coffee is hot, and the cake is fresh. You don’t even need to knock; just walk in like most folks do. Take a seat. We’ll talk as long as you have voice. I’ll even share a cigar with you.

          BTW, if you don’t like coffee and cake, let me know what you do like and it will be waiting for you.

          Regards,

          Chuck Wilson
          ARPTalk

           
          • Holly Lesesne Kennerly says:

            Thanks Chuckie!

             
            • Dear Ms. Holly Lesesne Kennerly,

              You’re welcome! Just know that the invitation is real. A goodly number in Due West can testify to my gracious hospitality.

              No one has ever been turned away. No one has ever been treated unkindly in my home.

              Regards,

              Chuck Wilson
              ARPTalk

               
              • Dear Ms. Holly Lesesne Kennerly,

                If you simply wanted to be angry and vent at me, I didn’t mind a bit. Many have!

                However, you have written that I “twist & turn and take out of context.” Well, where? Do you mind giving a specific or two? Being the recipient of Dr. Crenshaw’s expert training in “Critical Thinking,” didn’t you think that you should at least give an example or two?

                Regards,

                Chuck Wilson
                ARPTalk

                 
    • James Curtis says:

      I’ll be here!

       
  24. Tony Locke says:

    Hey Chuck, just a suggestion for a new conversation, did anyone participate in Pulpit Freedom Sunday? It was October 2nd.

    http://www.firstprestucker.org/sermon-archive/sermon-archive-2/2011-10-02/

     

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